We saw the new movie Spy Kids this weekend, and it looks like someone (maybe Antonio Banderas - the father of the Cortez kids in this story?) may be trying to do his part to support la zeta. In one scene, as the Bad Guy leans over Banderas in a menacing manner, he spits out a nasty comment, ending with "Señor CorteTH!" with a nice strong emphasis on the TH! Someone (¿un español?) must have started a discussion on the set!

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Diana ]

Hooray for la zeta!

Is the legend about some king of Spain having a lisp true? I think I heard somewhere that, because the king said "theta," the courtiers also affected this manner of pronunciation. It sounds like a made-up story, but I have learned that much of TRUE Spanish history sounds like it must have been made up (now that I think of it, much of world history seems a bit too odd to have been real!).

I've heard the same legend...and although it isn't based in fact, it is better than fact. I think Eddie posted on this elsewhere on the board.

All of you Bond fans may remember the opening scene in The World is Not Enough being set in Bilbao. I was pleased with that movie as well, as the "Spanish-speakers" also used the "zeta". They were the "Ertzainas" (Basque police) who broke into the office. It's always good to hear a director's done his/her homework and has gotten the accent right.

Although the sound /z/ is the most correct for letter z and ce,ci the RAE also acepts as correct the sound /s/ as it's so extended.
The reason I heard about why sound /s/ it's so extended in America is that the ships to America left at Seville, so people spent a lot of time there before emigrating, and they got a Sevillian accent before leaving. So I supose the sound /z/ was the original one, I never heard about that story. Originally there were also different sounds for b/v and y/ll, I like very much the /ll/ sound although I can hardly do it and it's almost loose everywhere but some places in Castilla. The RAE doesn't accept a diferent sound for /v/ nowadays. They don't accept also the sound /z/ for letter s that is done in some places as it's not so much extended.
Don't you find the sound of Spanish here in Madrid and Castilla very hard?
I found the south talking more sweet, overall in Canary Island and Southamerica.

Now I know why we do not pronounce the Z and V in America. B and V are pronounced the same, and we always have problems in spelling with those letters, not so much a problem with S and Z because there are less words with Z.
Some movies and most of the tv programs from other languages are translated with an American accent because with a Castillian accent the strong pronunciation of the V and Z will disturb the audience, as people are not used to that pronunciation they pay more attention to how nice do they pronounce and get lost in the story.

Rafael

OK, I'm confused. I grew up in the US, with a Spanish-speaking abuelita (from Spain - originally, Salamanca). She used the Castillian zeta and the ll, but I don't recall that she made any distinction in sound between B and V. What is the difference?

Phonetically, there is no difference between /b/ and /v/. They are both bilabial sounds that are "no sonoros". In other words, when you put your fingers on your voice box and pronounce /b/ or /v/, you won't get a "rattle".

Regarding the B & V sounds -- they are not exactly the same sound, although it certainly appears that way...

The sound made by the letter "B" is identical to English, but the "V" (as I was taught) is slightly different: to make the Spanish "V" you actually end up blowing a small amount of air between your lips, without them touching as they do in the B sound. (Try saying the word "bay" without having your lips come completely together)

Pretty subtle difference, although in casual conversation they pretty much sound the same. Some of you Spanish teachers may care to comment...?

It used to be a difference in the pronunciation of b and v in Spanish. However, nowadays they are both pronounced the same (at least in Spain) and I think it's exactly the same sound you have in English for the b.

Regards,

Antonio

In terms of the B and V difference, the person that said that its like saying "bay" without completely closing your lips, thats partially true. There are certain rules that go along with that, because that does not only pertain to the v, but also the b in certain cases.

Hi everyone. This is my first post here. Anyway I just want to add my two cents about why the accents are different in the americas. This is because when Spain was in its colonial period, the vast majority of people that travelled to the new world were Extremeños and Andalucians. This in turn is because of economic and political reasons. These areas are historically the most economically depressed and politically oppressed areas of spain and this was especially true then. The people in the areas of Old Castile (the political center of Spain), Catalonia (the economic center) and the north and northeast (where the peasants were relatively well-off) didnt have as much reason to leave Spain as did those in the south. Also, most of the conquistadors were petty nobility from Extremadura and Andalucia and enrolled crews and passengers from these areas. The castillian nobility didnt move in force to these regions until the 18th and 19th centuries. As to why these areas have a different accent from Castile, and the north, I am not sure. If I had to guess, I would say it was due to the fact that these areas had different influences, esp. the much heavier Moorish influence on the south.

Thanks Antonio,
I've always taught my students that the B and V sound is the same as the English B but without pressing the lips together and thus making the "plosive" B of, for example "baby" - where there's a tiny puff of air blown out. What WAS the difference in sound, when there was one?

I'm not 100% sure but I think it was the same (or similar) to the difference between the pronunciation of b and v in English.

The b/v distinction in English causes native Spanish speakers some problems. When my (Andalucian)wife first visited the UK she apologised so someone who had misunderstood her English by explaining that she had "problems with her bowels" ! :o

:o Hahahaha!! You just gave me my first chuckle of the day, El Boqueron. Thanks! I enjoyed it so much I had to read it to my coworker and she too laughed out loud (at your wife's expense, I'm sorry to say). Oh well. It's an innocent mistake and made often, I'm sure.

This isn't only a problem for native speakers! Spanish teachers who spend at least 9 months of the year speaking Spanish all day,often have the same problem as Boqueron's wife. My grown children still tease me about it. ("That's berry berry nice") It's a difficult sound to get rid of when you're switching between the 2 languages!

Glad y'all liked the story! We have a running joke - when speaking English you must "open your bowels and not roll your arse"!
(last bit may not work in US English).