Hi,
When I was in Spain I didn't understand why North America is so racist, but now that I am living here I understand. I don't think that is a skin problem, I think is a behavior problem. I am very open to all cultures, skin color, religious background... but I've seen here that many black people don't behave in the right way and they are very proud of being "bad guys". They way the talk, move, act is very agressive and that makes you think that all blacks are dangerous. On the other hand I have black friends that behave but people don't like them because of what other black people do, as we say in Spain "pagan justos por pecadores". Same with hispanics, most of them don't want to blend with American, they have their own neighborhoods, stores, they don't respect american customs but want their customs to be respected, they don't follow the american rules (like don't tell to an unknown woman in the middle of the street how "hot" she is), they don't learn to speak English... Of course not all of them are like that , but my experience in this country is that they don't try to be accepted. Same thing is Spain with gipsys, they say that we the "payos" (white people) don't like them, but they are the ones that are racist against whites. They don't want to go to school, work, live in houses, pay taxes... and the rest of the Spaniards have to pay to the goverments so they can use that money to build free houses for gipsys.
I think that no matter what race you are you will be accpeted as long as you try to blend and follow the basic rules. I am not saying that all of us have to act the same way, but there are rules that we have to use in order to have a peaceful life together and my experience is that some races are not willing to do so. I try to keep my Spaniard customs in USA but I celebrate Northamerican holidays too because I am a guest in their country. All races have an identity that we want to keep and that is fine as far as we are nice to other people, specially if we are living in their country. One of the communities that I like the most in USA are the Asian communities, they know how to keep their customs and how to be happy in a foreigner country and at the same time they are very respectful to Americans.

but "white" people whatever that is, have suffered in countries all over the world and still do, it always amazes me that the world seems to believe that white people are rich folk with no problems, or don't suffer from prejudices. White people recieve racism just like anybody else all the time just like all the other people. I think the thing in america is no one says "i'm american" people always ask you so what are you, or what is your nationality and people say: japanese, chinese, guatamalen, peruvian, vietnamese, no one ever says i'm american, cause people won't take that for an answer, they are like, ya but what are you? on forms there should be a box that you should check that says american, along with pacific islander, african, hispanic........... people don't say i'm american here, they say i'm mexican, i'm irish, i'm cuban, and they are not, they have never left their city or their country, and have NO idea what it is like to be cuban or mexican or irish thay just say that cause along time ago their family may have come from there along with the other 6 nationalities they might also posses. it's a very hard thing here cause it's like you have to be something, you just can't be american. What happens when you are white with blonde hair and blue eyes and freckles and have a fully hispanic name and your family came from a hispanic country, or if you are black and your family came from puerto rico, it's like what are you black or hispanic, what do you check? why can't we just be an american, being the fact that is what we are. It is very irritating sometimes cause sometimes you just can't classify people, they don't even know where their family is from or they are 10 different nationalities and they have to say they are something, not "oh i'm american" to me it's been very irritating cause why can't we just be people.

[This message has been edited by missmadrid98 (edited 10-18-2000).]

Sevilla, this is in reponse to your post.
I have spent the last two years resettling refugees from vietnam, iraq, cuba, east and west africa and the former yugoslavia. Every single nationality moved into a neighborhood specifically to be near people of their own community. "Asians" don't assimilate better than any other ethnic group - at least, not in my experience. Go to any mid to large size American city and you will find ethnic ghettoes. period. As an American abroad, the expatriate community did the exact same thing. It has been rare to live in other countries and find Americans, etc. that made strong attempts to learn the language of the place.

As for Hispanics in the US, the large majority of people that came to our evening English classes at my job were Hispanic immigrants who were trying to learn English in order to adapt better. One thing that made it difficult for a lot of them,is that many times they didn't have a lot of formal education in their countries, and that make learning another language particularly difficult. As a Spanish teacher too, I can attest to that (if some one has literacy problems, sitting in a class room to learn a language can be an overwhelming undertaking).

I think you are applying some pretty wide stereotypes without a lot of knowlege. The way people talk and act is about environment and culture, and not about who someone really is inside. There are also a lot of different cultures in the us -east coast, west coast, north, south, urban, rural, blue colar, white collar, etc. There are plenty that have offensive and scary behavior regardless of race.

I am a white female that grew up in a very sheltered neighborhood. It was not until I worked at my last job that I really got any in depth exposure to poor urban america. There was an alternative high school upstairs with teen agers from the neighborhood. Through knowing them, as Indivuals, I developed alot more empathy and understanding for what a large chunk of the American population goes through. There was a lot I simply didn't know and that affects the way people behave. Believe me, it is not the same life AT ALL.

Getting back to spain and this board, this is really too large a topic to address here, but it is pertinent. The reason I loved Spain and didn't spend a year complaining about its people, its customs and way of life - like most of the other Americans that were in my group - is because I wanted to be open to the experience. Because of that I made great friends and gained a deeper understanding of what it is to be Spanish in Castilla y Leon.

The same applies to any other place I have been or people I have come to know. The way people speak and act is just surface crap. When you get past that, your really get to the wonderful part of the human connection. some individuals you will like, and some you won't no matter their ethnic background.

Anyway that is my thought for the day... back to work. Have great day all you fellow Spain lovers.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 10-18-2000).]

Our country was founded with the western European perpective, the mores, ethics and cultures of those countries. Since the beginning then, it has been the "norm" to fit into that "culture". The "melting pot" is an outdated concept. We are asked to leave our heritage at home, or to disown it all together and learn to "fit" in. I understand this for our society's sake. But isn't our diversity what makes this country such a great place to live?!
Yes, I don't deny that we have our problems here and they come from both sides, the oppressors and the oppressed, but when Sevilla comments and makes generalizations about the Blacks that don't want to cooperate, or the Mexicans that don't want to assimilate, just perpetuates the problem. Intead of really looking for answers we just point fingers-from both sides.
I know we are all "Americans", but I am proud to tell people my heritage. I am a light-skinned, blue-eyed American of Spanish descent, my family has been here for generations. (NO i'm am not Mexican claiming to be Spanish). But I get questioned and pressed all the time to define my ethnicity, I assimilate very well on both sides of the coin, but i want it to be clear where I hail from.
There is no easy solution to the racial injustices that take place everyday. It has to start with the individual. As a teacher, I value the individual, one must look past the color of the skin and see what each person has to offer this world.

amen

What I meant to say is that not only white people have to work to accept other races but all of us have to try. What I've seen here is that minorities complain all the time about how racist is this place but they don't try to open theirselves, they don't show to the rest their best qualities. I believe that racist comes from the fact that we are ignorant of other cultures and it is our task to get to know other cultures, but it is the task of other cultures to let the rest of the world to know them. So, my point of view is that we might have not enough interest to konw other cultures and other cultures might not be interested in being known.

Nicole..you said "The way people speak and act is just surface crap".

Are you kidding?? These are reflections of what the person wants to be. I think what our Spaniard friend was saying about blacks is that they are almost perpetuating the stereotypes that the media (yes, us!) has put forth about them. The typical black person that everyone sees on TV is trying to "act all bad" and "dangerous". Is this something positive that would urge me to stike up a conversation at the supermarket with the black guy wearing a huge parka during the summertime with gold chains and a handerkerchief tied sideways on his head? It's a form of isolationism they are practicing. I understand that the person is probably very nice but when you hear him talking like he's on MTV you don't even want to approach that kind of a person just for safety reasons. I see this a as the fault of the media and that person. It's definetely a drawback that will keep that person from getting the job they probably could get otherwise and will eventually serve to harden that person against the majority because they "don't understand him." The funny thing is....it's not even his ethnic culture at all! Africans don't act that way. It's something that's been completely make up here in the USA and is now widespread all over the country and exported to the world through media outlets. It's sad really.

Leche

laduque - and I understand what you're saying about wanting to hold on to your diversity. That is a good thing. But to me the most important is finding that balance to embrace the countries' customs where you find yourself. To me that is what this board and website are all about...embracing the spanish culture, understanding it and making it a part of ourselves through our journeys and interest in Spain. I have see too many hispanics that have lived in this country for YEARS and never bothered to learn English. They get catered to by US with options to do everything in Spanish like voting, ect. Do you think this is right? Can you see this type of thing happening in Spain or anywhere else? of course not. I agree with the Spaniard who posted that she felt like a guest here in the USA. That's how I felt living in Spain for 2 years and that's how I feel whenever I go back. I esforzarme to understand and accept what I see in Spain, even if it's different from what I'm used to here in Idaho. That's part of being a part of the world community wherever you are.

Leche

I realize that in order to assimilate and prosper in our country, one must learn the language, laws, and idiosyncracies that everyday life is about, but not at the expense of sacrificing your own heritage. I realize there are people who do not chose to participate in "mainstream America", I have no answer for that.
I, too, when in Spain, try my best to speak the language, live the life and absorb all that that great country is about.
We must remember that Spain is, for all intents and purposes, a homogenous society, while, we, in the U.S. are a heterogenous society with people from all over the world, in a "new" country, trying to adapt. The U.S. is a relatively young country in comparison, no?
Yes, Spain has autonomous communities and don't forget that the Basque country and Cataluña embrace their own appropriate languages. Remember the bilingual road signs. You see this all over the north!
When addressed by a waiter in Barcelona, it is usually in Catalan. There, we find it charming, here, we are annoyed.
All I mean is that we have a long way to go.

Sorry leche. I just tend to take a different view.

I do believe that we are all responsible for how how we represent ourselves, but we are also all products of our culture. It's like telling someone from the south that they need to stop speaking with a southern accent or people will think their stupid/slow (that is a sterotype a lot of northerners have).I just don't think that stuff is something you turn off and on, unless your parents and community teach you how to that.

Along with working with refugees, I did some work with welfare-to work candidates. One of the candidates had such an attitude the first day I wanted to slap her. Nonetheless, we sat down and wrote out her resume, and I pumped her up, and I think, helped her see some of the qualities she never thought she had. She hugged me and cried when we were done. She masked her insecurity by being really agressive. We worked on how she presented herself to people, so she would do better in interviews. It was a loooong, tender process, she had/has a lot of hurdles to get over. She is one of many people I met, white black hispanic in the neighborhood who had a parent on drugs, in prison, abusive, etc. It's pretty hard to think about how to talk right so you can get an upwardly mobile job, when you are straddled with a community where drugs are the norm your dad smacks you around every night, as much as you might want to. We all need a little more guidance than that.

Most of the kids that I dealt with at this particular place knew literally NO ONE in their community that had gone to college, and had jobs. I guess I figure that most of us are not such extraordinarly human beings that we can completely divorce ourselves from our environments and re-create ourselves. At least not overnight...

I figure, I know what my prejudices are, and often their sources, but it is still up to ME to continue working on them. That has a lot to do with me trying to be the person that I want to be. I want to be compassionate and open. My attempts to be that kind of person have provided me with some pretty extraordinary experiences in my short life. I also think that is a life long and continual effort. I often dissapoint myself, but have been able to grow enormously from getting to know diverse folks in my life. I have really come to love people that I never thought I would talk to or be able to identify with.

One main point for me is that when prejudice exists, anything negative that happens serve to reinforce that in a lot of people. It is always "well this hispanic guy came up to me and.... what about the other 20 thousand hispanics that didn't?" I lived with a family in Spain my first semester that were continually telling me I needed to lose weight and that I shouldn't eat dinner (I was 5'4" and 115 pounds, not skinny but not exactly fat either - I later realized that this was because they wanted to keep as much of the $$ the institute gave them to house me- they also had all kinds of food locked up in the living room for the family where I got the cold spaghetti for dinner). Their son was extremely hostile and perpetually attacked me for being american, which was particularly frustrating, because I couldn't speak Spanish well enough to defend myself. Nonetheless, I never said, nor believed Spaniards are cheap/jerks/unapproachable and that they are anti-American. It probably would have been harder for me not to think that way if I already held that stereotype beforehand.

At school I had a friend gang raped by a bunch of white fraternity guys. On other occasions, frat guys stripped a woman naked down when she passed out and wrote on her body and left her outside in mid Iowa winter in front of the House. I don't say, nor do I believe that white guys are bad and that frat guys are bad. I don't feel a shiver of fear when I see a white frat-looking guy, because the stereotype hasn't been pumped into my head - despite the fact that there are plenty of statistics that should give me at least a little pause (these are not even close to the only examples of that stuff that went on at MY campus - let alone others.

That is the difference with groups that are discriminated against. Exceptions are used to "prove" a rule that dehumanizes people. Essentially, you let it prove to you that it is okay to continue thinking the way you do.

Besides, it is not (to me) about having your stereotypes proved wrong, because a lot of times we actually have elements of those characteristics in us - as well as a lot other stuff that doesn't fit into the stereotype people may have of us. I am a blond, blue eyed American, and it always seems to shock people that I speak spanish. I don't look like I would. I do have some serious stereotypical upper middle class American woman traits in me though. Can't help it. It is an indelible part of who I am, as well as much much more. Who knows what sort of things people think about me before I even open my mouth. It doesn't mean I am worthless or more worhy than others.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion, leche.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 10-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 10-18-2000).]