Just came back from 11 days in Barcelona and... WOW! That city is more elegant, clean, and seemingly better maintained than any US city I've seen - or any other in Spain for that matter. Clean, well-maintained, fresh and open, and hardly saw any dog poop on the streets. The Catalans certainly take pride in their country: Catalunya . And they too have to follow all the same national government policies, practices, and enjoy most all of the same benefits. (i.e. health care, pensions, other social services)

And when one looks at Madrid - WOW! There's a seemingly constate state of construction projects and "improvements" so it's difficult to make an argument saying they don't take pride in their city/country.

Regarding the botellónes in Spain, I don't like them either but it's either provide when-needed/if-needed security or make the front page of all the world's news agencies by showing/having riots with police trying to forcefully remove them - AND THEN Spain will appear to the world to be a hard-handed police state. And apart from a FEW hard-line Partido Popular (hard-right-wing party) supporters, NO ONE wants that in/for Spain.

Think about this. There's REAL/TRUE pride in your country because of the virtuous actions of your neighbors within your community and (hopefully) your government and there's a pride which comes from the manipulated messages which are pumped into ones brains by those controling such "message carriers" in a lifetime, over generations in order to reach a wanted result. If you're from Planet X and your ruler has been telling you for generations that yours is the CORRECT way. And the same ruler tells you that the ways of Plantet Z are INCORRECT. If you believe this you'll be MORE than willing to charge into battle to fight for your way of life - no matter if those on Planet Z are threatening you or not, the POTENTIAL, the POSSIBILITY that they just might threaten you sommmmmmeday, posssssibly in the fuuuuuture. Well, that's reason enough to ... well... you know.

"He who controls ideas will always be in control, mainly of those who can't or won't think for themselves."
- MadridMan

"You can get people to do almost anything when you control their fear - but only those willing to worry about that which you're promoting."
- MadridMan

Darn MadridMan,

Your my hero.

Although, let's not forget a third category of people. The people that have actually had an opportunity to live on Planet Z, and now, really understand why thier system is better. Those are the kind that can't be convinced that thier system is so wrong.

MM,
How many soap boxes did you buy in Barcelona?

MadridMan, you need to see V for Vendetta. Let me know when it comes over to Spain, if it does!

I'm tim hortons man and my wife is tim hortons lady, When I posted that comment I didn't realize I was logged in as THL that's was happens when you share a computer.

as well I contacted the board Administrator and had him correct the post.

Beautiful Post MadridMan, perfectly described manipulation and lived by many people, even here in the freedom loving USofA. The idea that one's country and it's success's are proof that one's people are superior in all ways is an ugly and scary attribute that has been used many times throughout history to enable one human being to destroy another for the "fatherland". Villanization becomes easy when one thinks another group is somehow subhuman, I can remember during the Vietnam War when it was common to hear "Those Vietnamese aren't like us, they place no value on human life", Gooks, Slopes,Monkeys,Slanteyes,etc; etc;. When later one finds that your former adversaries are indeed human beings with families, feelings, culture, and sometimes even more forgiving than ourselves it can be emotionally devastating.
Maybe one day we can all consider one another as fellow human beings and relish our differences instead of developing hatred.
OK I'll get off my soapbox !