Is it me or what, but after being here for several weeks (of a 6-8 month stay)I've come to the conclusion that Spain is really an upgraded version of Mexico. It feels like a third world country with world class transportation system (courtesy of the EU).

What I don't understand is that it is such a beautiful country why don't they take more pride in it. Coming from Germany (originally from Canada) I really noticed good enough seems to be the norm not the exception. It drives the German in me mad. Maybe its just our unit but I'm not too impressed with the workmanship here.

It's not just the poor workmanship but the garbage that is just tossed out next to the bin. (heaven forbid the expat that doesn't sort his garbage and place it correct on the curb)they seem to be really laid back about it.

I was in Tres Contos the other day and had a bit of time to kill so I took a walk around and was amazed that they would simply brick up (rather than putting in a window)a store front it really degraded the whole building.

On the positive all my German colleagues are jealous, weather in Munich cold wet snowy and slushy. And they have another 2-3 months to look forward to!

Tim Hortons Man,

Are you talking about Spain not taking care of it's national monuments and buildings in general?

When I was there last time the Senora we visit, that my wife used to work for, mentioned, after we told her that we visited the Alhambra, that it was the efforts of an American, I assumed she meant Washington Irving, that caused this great monument of history to be preserved. I too am rather surprised at some of the conditions of their beautiful fountains in Madrid that they have let go. And Retiro is really bad from what I remembered from the late 70's and early 80's.

I'm sure its a money issue, but also, unfortunately, probably a cultural difference. But, living here close to Detroit, I can't really throw stones at them. I see all respect for things of the pass falling by the wayside. It's so unfortunate to see things that our civilisation should be taking pride deteriorating so badly. If you know my views, it's because of the advance of socialism. Relying too much on the government to take care of things and to little individual pride and effort being emphasized. Just my opinion.

I think one reason Spain is not like Germany is because the citizens do not live in a constant police state- in Germany, the neighbors and the police instill the pride you are talking about: by ringing the landlord if you don't separate your trash, as a pedestrian and cyclist you are ticketed for crossing a 3-meter wide street on a red light at 6 a.m. on a Sunday, and you are subject to random searches on the street without cause. Living in this constant fear, of course you're going to put your trash in the bin and your going to follow the rules. Please do not assume this behavior comes from pride in your country. Granted, I put my trash in the bin, but, as you can see, not all people think this way. No, Spain is not Germany, but I think many will agree- that's a good thing.
About the poor workmanship- this comes from not having the resources to do it the way in which you are accustomed. Work in Germany is extremely expensive and not many in Spain are able to pay those prices- for example, a bathroom in Spain costs half as much to install as a bathroom in Germany. Just the tile work alone costs more than the entire bathroom in Spain. Why do you think so many are coming from the east...Germans charge an arm and a leg for this quality craftsmanship you're referring to. Not all of the work in Spain is poor, you just have to have tons 'o cash to pay for a quality job. I think a lot of it also has to do with the rapid development of housing over the last decade and the desire to keep costs low.
Also, please do not attribute Spain's transportation excellence to the EU- granted, the grants and projects are wonderful and nobody would dispute Spain has been given a good deal in the recent years- but if you had spent decades in Spain, you would know they have always made public transportation available and inexpensive.

Amen Nevado; i have travelled to 32 countries including living in Spain in early 70's and visited Germany and Canada as well. All countries are different thanks God, so enjoy the best of them and ADJUST!
The Retiro park saw again in august 2005 beautiful and brought a lot of memories....the only diff is now they are a bit faster??? oh well adjustement time again;;lol!!!

gazpacho

There are alot of people on britboard.de who'd agree with your comments on Germany! There is no question that Germany is over regulated and expensive, although prices aren't as cheap as I thought they'd be here, and housing is much more expensive.

I commented to my landlady about all the dogs around and she said 10 years ago no one oculd afford a dog. I thought about it and I think it has more to do with being used to German over the toppness than the spanish laid backness.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I must say inspite of the difference I've fallen in love with spain, I understand why people move here.

Say Tim Hortons Man - Are you Tim Hortons MAN or Tim Hortons LADY?? I asked because it seems you - or your lady - posted nevado's comments above but you (or your lady) quoted it as being MY words. You'll find it at http://www.britboard.de/index.php?showtopic=6608&st=0 : Won't you go back to that thread on the other message board and clarify (or edit that posting if you can do it) to state that SOMEONE on the MadridMan Message Board said what you quoted and that it WAS NOT ME? Thanks.

Saludos, MadridMan (double capital M-s and no spaces)

Maybe they meant the comments on MadridMan.com? Not actually MadridMan?

I have to agree, sometimes it seems like the attitude is "good enough."

The one time I visited McDonald's in Madrid, I bought a sundae. I was planning to walk back to my hostal and asked for a lid so that my sundae could withstand the elements. I expected one of those sundae covers they have here. Instead, the young guy behind the counter smushed my sundae with a lid meant for a drink. He smushed and smushed until the ice cream was oozing out the sides. Then he laughed and said, "mas o menos" (more or less). I took it as a metaphor for the Spanish attitude.

That said, the Spanish do other things better than in many places. You cannot beat the reach of the Madrid metro. The preservation of historic sites, particularly in Andalucia, is astonishing. Most people (outside Madrid, methinks) would give you their right arm if you asked them. Nobody does reality television and variety shows better than the Spaniards. And I would take Spain's work/life balance over the United States' any day.

"And I would take Spain's work/life balance over the United States' any day."

Here Here - I admire so much the Spanish outlook on life - My first two years or so living in Madrid I was very distainful of many Spanish ways - Thought America was so much better - it didnt take me but 6 months back in the States to realize - fully realize - that I belong in Spain more than at home now... I wish I could be as brave as MadridMan and make the permanent plunge but I will have to settle for part time until I win the lottery or become independently wealthy somehow (any suggestions on how much appreciated :-)

Tim Horton Man,

Well, I'm confused. I didn't make any comments about Germany. I know nothing about it. Perhaps you were referring to nevado's comments?

Tim H.Man,

Apart from the nightmare of ZP policies, this is another reason why we don’t take more pride in being Spanish. Many things don’t work in Spain. Personally, I prefer regulated Germany or Switzerland than semi-anarchic Spain. In Sevilla today at 19 p.m. I have counted 10 police vans looking after the teenagers/youth “botellón”.

Have a look on Spanish papers Diario de Sevilla , El Mundo or in English The Times

Just came back from 11 days in Barcelona and... WOW! That city is more elegant, clean, and seemingly better maintained than any US city I've seen - or any other in Spain for that matter. Clean, well-maintained, fresh and open, and hardly saw any dog poop on the streets. The Catalans certainly take pride in their country: Catalunya . And they too have to follow all the same national government policies, practices, and enjoy most all of the same benefits. (i.e. health care, pensions, other social services)

And when one looks at Madrid - WOW! There's a seemingly constate state of construction projects and "improvements" so it's difficult to make an argument saying they don't take pride in their city/country.

Regarding the botellónes in Spain, I don't like them either but it's either provide when-needed/if-needed security or make the front page of all the world's news agencies by showing/having riots with police trying to forcefully remove them - AND THEN Spain will appear to the world to be a hard-handed police state. And apart from a FEW hard-line Partido Popular (hard-right-wing party) supporters, NO ONE wants that in/for Spain.

Think about this. There's REAL/TRUE pride in your country because of the virtuous actions of your neighbors within your community and (hopefully) your government and there's a pride which comes from the manipulated messages which are pumped into ones brains by those controling such "message carriers" in a lifetime, over generations in order to reach a wanted result. If you're from Planet X and your ruler has been telling you for generations that yours is the CORRECT way. And the same ruler tells you that the ways of Plantet Z are INCORRECT. If you believe this you'll be MORE than willing to charge into battle to fight for your way of life - no matter if those on Planet Z are threatening you or not, the POTENTIAL, the POSSIBILITY that they just might threaten you sommmmmmeday, posssssibly in the fuuuuuture. Well, that's reason enough to ... well... you know.

"He who controls ideas will always be in control, mainly of those who can't or won't think for themselves."
- MadridMan

"You can get people to do almost anything when you control their fear - but only those willing to worry about that which you're promoting."
- MadridMan

Darn MadridMan,

Your my hero.

Although, let's not forget a third category of people. The people that have actually had an opportunity to live on Planet Z, and now, really understand why thier system is better. Those are the kind that can't be convinced that thier system is so wrong.

MM,
How many soap boxes did you buy in Barcelona?

MadridMan, you need to see V for Vendetta. Let me know when it comes over to Spain, if it does!

I'm tim hortons man and my wife is tim hortons lady, When I posted that comment I didn't realize I was logged in as THL that's was happens when you share a computer.

as well I contacted the board Administrator and had him correct the post.

Beautiful Post MadridMan, perfectly described manipulation and lived by many people, even here in the freedom loving USofA. The idea that one's country and it's success's are proof that one's people are superior in all ways is an ugly and scary attribute that has been used many times throughout history to enable one human being to destroy another for the "fatherland". Villanization becomes easy when one thinks another group is somehow subhuman, I can remember during the Vietnam War when it was common to hear "Those Vietnamese aren't like us, they place no value on human life", Gooks, Slopes,Monkeys,Slanteyes,etc; etc;. When later one finds that your former adversaries are indeed human beings with families, feelings, culture, and sometimes even more forgiving than ourselves it can be emotionally devastating.
Maybe one day we can all consider one another as fellow human beings and relish our differences instead of developing hatred.
OK I'll get off my soapbox !