huh???..I don't get your point! The Bloods and Crips aren't an unsaviory element? ..... because that is what the Gypsy element will tend to be more like - - not the southern traditional Spanish culture that you are seeking! They are a group within Spanish culture with which you won't integrate easily with and will not ensure your safety, as a general rule. If you were to actively search them out, they would identify you as an economic opportunity and not as someone with which to share ideas and information.

If you were visiting a foreign country speaking with someone that was extremely interested in black culture and black history but didn't have any real world experience with U.S. culture and, furthermore, sincerely believed the best way to learn about black history and culture was to fly to California (alone) and try to visit people that associated with elements of the Bloods and Crips you wouldn't advise them not to?? You wouldn't direct them elsewhere??

That's all I did. Unless you have lived in Spain, you wouldn't appreciate the dangers that exist in seeking companionship with the gypsy sub-culture!! Will they kill you? Doubtful!! Will they steal your property and harm you if needed? Likely!

As I said, it isn't an exact parallel. BUT the gypsy culture is very difficult to integrate with AND your property and well being are not ensured.

If it makes you feel better, I'll take my perceived racist and ignorant example and turn it around. You are a Mexican interested in southern U.S. history and culture and the best place, you think, to learn about southern history and culture is to visit and intermingle with some of the more conservative elements of southern U.S. society because that is what you have HEARD represents southern history and culture. I'd direct you elsewhere because your SAFETY depends on it. NOT because I dislike southerners as a group!

That is exactly what you want to do in Spain. You are interested in some element of Spain and, because you don't know any better, you picked a rather dangerous segment of Spanish society to learn about.

Due to the abbreviated communication format of message boards, I picked a brief and imperfect analogy to help an American appreciate how dangerous the decision to actively seek the gypsy culture could be. I didn't attempt to write a comparative dissertation on American cultural segments and the degree their criminal elements will accept outsiders into their group!

There was no reason to be so reactionary.

I can certainly see how someone could become enamored with gypsy culture upon watching flamenco, listening to flamenco music/song, and seeing gypsy focused movies, etcetera. It's always quite romantic and heartfelt, almost spiritual. But as we've stated above, those gypsies participating in song/art in Spain are a small/tiny segment of the entire gyspy nation. Gypsies have history in Spain - much of it difficult and challenging. Gypsies are clannish both to their credit and to their fault. I don't personally know any gypsies and I imagine there are a number of Spaniards who don't know any gypsies (personally) either - that's mainly because Spanish gypsies are the unfortunate outsiders in their own country.

We might recommend that you read some books about Spanish gypsies. Surely there are some documentaries and/or case studies on the topic written in English.

Maybe the best thing would be to involve yourself in Spanish flamenco dance and music - if that's where your interests are. There, you can sample the wonderful artistic parts of gypsy life and possibly through them you can get a small taste of the other side of gypsy life.

Best of luck! Saludos, MadridMan

You asked for advice and help from people who do have the knowledge and are are willing to share their knowledge to answer your questions.

You don't seem to like the knowledgable responses you got -

I stronly suggest you do some homework on the Gitanos' customs and cultures. I think what you have been told here is what you will discover if you do your homework ...

IsavellaSophia:

Your are taking TJGuy's comments totally out of context. I'm from Mexico and totally understand what he is trying to say, and don't feel offendend but grateful that someone wants to guide me in the right direction.

And since you are African-American I would suggest that when you travel abroad you understand that in other countries we don't have the same history that black people have had in the U.S. In consequence you might hear, whether good or not, people making jokes, staring and directly calling someone in a colloquial manner "negro" without that black person (native of that country) been offended. Be open minded.

For example, a black friend of mine, from the U.S., went to live to Guadalajara (Mexico) and say people would ask her if they could touch her skin to see if it was for real. These people were probably naive, but she was never offended because of this, she only enjoyed been different. Sorry if this offends anyone I'm just trying to be of help.

Hi I.S.

I didn't post that black culture consists of Bloods and Crips - not sure how you read that but if I was careless or inexact with my wording, my apologies. I don't think anyone on this board would ascribe a criminal element as a "cultural characterstic". No Spaniard or board member would say that ETA is a cultural characterstic of Spain. My attempted point was to say that someone that did not know better, in their search for greater understanding, could find themselves in a geat deal of trouble without knowing how they got there.

Gitanos are part of the Spanish landscape just as the Bloods and Crips are part of the African-American landscape and neo-nazis and skinheads are part of the caucasion-American landscape and La Raza is part of the Mexican-American landscape. They all have in common a characteristic of living outside the natural and formal laws of man.

My guess is that a Spaniard could visit your house and your community and know that they would not be a target. It could not be said that the same Spaniard, in an effort to learn about black culture and history, would not be harrassed in some manner if they attempted to associate with members of either the Bloods or Crips. A Spaniard that had never visited the U.S. would not have the tools or knowledge to know when he was venturing into a situation that was not safe.

Our concern is that this is what would happen to you. You could very well find a well-meaning gitano to answer your questions and not know when you wandered into a situation that might turn dangerous.

Equally, I know that if you visit Spain and follow the board's recommendations about learning Gypsy culture and flamenco, you would be perfectly safe. I cannot tell you that if you actively sought out gitanos in Spain that your experience would not have elements of danger.

Perhaps we jumped the gun before understanding what you wanted to know. For those of us that have lived in Spain (or live in Spain), the possibility of a tourist intending to visit Spain with the stated purpose of visiting and mingling with the Gypsy population sets off alarms of concern; to such a degree that we blew right by your question.

The Gypsy population lives outside the social norms of Spanish society and as an entire group, has its own values and norms. We probably should not have called them a subgroup or part of Spanish society. The live on the Iberian Pennisula, which is politcally and economically controlled by Spain and Portugal. That a few members of their population produce fantanstic music that originates from Spain shouldn't suggest that you should expect to be treated as a "Spaniard" would treat you.
Again, my apologies if my posting was received not as it was intended. I wanted you to have a very internalized understanding that there was danger involved in what you intended to do.

By the way (and keep in mind that this is a generalization, probably there are gypsies out there who doesn't fit the stereotype): spanish gypsies are extremely racist. They will put out of their clan a woman who marries a non-gypsy spaniard. They usually don't meet non-gypsy people (usually, I know exceptions) unless necessary.

I can't imagine how would they behave with a japanese or a black (who have been a extremely rare sight until 5-10 years ago in Spain).

You will see south-americans, african blacks, chineses and moors working in normal jobs (due to their inmigrant situation, usually low-qualified jobs as constructions workers, tenders or waiters). I've jet to see a gypsy working on those jobs (or any other job by the way).

My father employed two gypsies in a factory (against the counsel of a chief) only to be menaced and robbed by them two months later...

Fernando

You should go to El Rastro. Many gipsies are street salespersons. And many others are antiques shops' owners.

I don't feel comfortable with the "gipsies=evil" generalisation I am perceiving in this thread. It is true that, in relative numbers, there's more criminality among gipsies than non-gipsies, but one cannot state that a gipsy is either an artist or a criminal. Most of them work in other jobs, a shorter set of jobs than non-gipsies if you want, but honorable ones.

And, for the OP, it is completely true gipsies conform a very closed culture (with its pros and cons). It is very difficult to enter their group and I wouldn't try if I were a foreigner staying for a few days.

I'm racking my brains to remember the title and author of a book written by an English guy who got involved with a group of gypsies in Spain. He spent a long time with them and got to know their way of life and what they have to do to survive. If the name of the book eventually comes to me I'll post it on here as it got some good reviews. I've not had much contact with gypsies during my trips to Spain. I've sometimes felt sorry for them when I've seen them begging in the streets etc. I know that they have long history in Spain and in Europe generally and a rich culture although I understand that they are perhaps wary of outsiders.

" Duende a journey into the heart of FLAMENCO" byJason Webster A very interesting book about a guy headed for Spain and in search of duende. Studying flamenco guitar until his fingers bleed. I've enjoyed reading it.

I'm not saying they are all criminals.

As a whole, however, gypsy culture is to be criticize. They don't have a rich culture (if you understand culture the way it is, not only having some customs and having a special talent for flamenco).

Why dozens of civilizations have come to Spain during its history and they have integrated with the local population and gypsies haven't?

We may be tempted to think that it is a problem of racism... Then, why are 4 million inmigrants from South America and Africa working in Spain and paying their taxes and why most gypsies don't have legal jobs? (selling things in Rastro, commerce with scrap, or stealing paper from containers to sell it are not good examples).

Why a good percentage of gypsies don't take their children to schools (while south-americans, moroccians and others do)?

It is not a matter of racism. It is a matter of a culture which regular efforts are not valued, and in which others outside the culture are not to be respected.

And of course, this is a generalisation based on my experience. I'm sure there are gypsies who are fully integrated in our society.

Fernando