You know matador i just don't understand it what constitutes beautiful, i mean isin't beauty in the eye of the beholder. They can't just turn people away like that! Anyway, this question goes out to everyone. What do you think about people drugging women in bars, does that really happen in spain, i've heard some pretty grusem stories out there.

Some days ago I talked with a friend about this issue. Our conclussion is what I really think is the key to consider someone's attitude as racist: intentionality.

If someone stares at you with disaproval, that is racism, if stares at you with curiousity, I believe there is nothing wrong with it.

If someone turns you back in a pub for being black, he is a racist, if he turns you back because he doesn't like your shoes/wearing/face it is just that he is stupid

It is very difficult to judge people's intentions. Thus, it is equally difficult to label certain attitudes as racist, even more if you are trying to measure them according other countrys standards. For example, in the US it is rude to say things straight forward, while in Spain is normal; it may be considered racist to stare at a black person, while in Spain is as normal as staring at a white person; the term "black" is usually avoided and "coloured" is used instead, while in Spain there are not epithets. It is not that some way of behaving is better than the other. I appreciate the american (and in general the anglesaxon) concerning for others' feelings, while I also think that behaving in a natural way is something we should not change in Spain.

Anyway, I must say I was wrong defending that the monkey chants in the soccer match between England and Spain was something isolated. It seems it isn't, and I agree that something must be done in order to stop it.

Fernando

ninas wrote: I think that's better explored in a different/new thread. Let's stay on the current topic, please. Thanks!

Saludos, MadridMan

What you have to say about the 3-11 bombings the countless amount of drugs,murders,gangs,and other garbage that are being commited against the Spanish the immigrants are the ones doing unto us what wouldnt want done upon us. Im more then tired of the crime,drugs and gangs this cultural "enrichement".

Some of these "gangs" are Spanish neonazi's.
Today the Spanish papers carried a story of 19 young skinheads, 12 of whom are underage,4 girls, who decided to beat up a man in Madrid, simply because they felt he was dirty and badly dressed!

http://www.europasur.com/europasur/articulo.asp?idart=622660&idcat=729&compartido=yes


These skinheads are all over Spain, not just Madrid, they predate on immigrants and people of color.

The skinheads did this because in general they are just morons and they will never be able to sway public opinion. I also find it funny that this makes into the paper are violence by latinos and other recent immigrants ignored and their origin regulary concealed?

Racism is in the eye of beholder. Some people would consider me racist because I appose immigration some would not what is consider racist varies from individual to individual.

quote:
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It is such a shame that while living in the twentyfirst century people still act like we're living in the eighteen hundreds [Frown]

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU!
anonymous.
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"What you have to say about the 3-11 bombings the countless amount of drugs,murders,gangs,and other garbage that are being commited against the Spanish "

In response to the first statement quintos, I was merely pointing out that in several parts of the world( including America and Spain) people are still racist toward African Americans and that it is such a shame.

In regards to the next statement"DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU!" I was trying to say that people should try to treat others as they would like to be treated.

Now I never said anything about the 3-11 bombings but since we're on the subject, you said "the immigrants are the ones doing unto us what wouldnt want done upon us. Im more then tired of the crime,drugs and gangs this cultural "enrichement".

My question to you is why are you racist toward immigrants? even if there weren't any immigrants in spain, crime would still exist. who would you blame then? In reality we are all immigrants, our ancestors had to travel from somewhere to give us the opportunity to be where we are now. example: The early pilgrims from Enland "migrated" from there to the Americas , thus, the grand U.S.A was born. Crime in Spain and everywhere else exists not because we are immigrants but because it's part of human nature. :o

I was just discussing this issue with a Spanish friend yesterday. From what I've seen (and admittedly it's limited) I think a lot of Spaniards are openly racist. I was in Spain during the Olympics this summer and every time a Chinese athlete came on screen people commented on how ugly the Chinese are etc. They seemed really surprised when I questioned their racist remarks. I thought it may have just been people from this particular area (small town nr Castellon de la Plana) but last week a girl I know from Malaga complained about how many Chinese people are in Ireland, pulling her eyes to imitate them and making it clear how she feels about them. I was really shocked that people could be so openly racist. These are normal, respectable people who I liked until I heard their disgusting comments. I don't care how up front and honest they are, there's no excuse for thinking you are superior to others.

Yes but I believe it would be denying reality to say that crime rates wouldn't be much lower.

The system doesn't care about Spaniards or immigrants nor does the American government the system loves them because they are able to exploit them for cheap labor. The back bone of American globalization and industry relies on the cheap labor which only poor illiterate immigrants can bring who often cant even speak Spanish let alone English. So are Mexicans bad bad?? NO WAY their are good bad in every race. But when you fill a country with a lot of needy individuals that have been oppresed and will do anything to work and support their families and including having many children for welfare the crime rate and gang elements will increase to deny this is to deny reality. Thats why immigration needs to be controlled at the very least the over all reason western powers let em in is for cheap labor and so they can take advantage of their economic situation. Furthermore when we take into account the millions of people still living in their country of origin rooting away. It apparently becomes pretty clear that uncontrolled immigration,capitalism and globalization is simple not the answer to todays problems Spain last year took in 600,000 immigrants FIVE times as much as UK we simple can not absorb more immigration its as simple as that we can not take in 600,000 immigrants a year. Your contry runs in at about just under a million a year although official numbers are 700,000 Spain which is about the size of California is taking almost as much as the whole US this is UNACCPETABLE! Madrids immigrant population has increased from 3% to 14% in four years. This is no OK and I will not stand for this im not racist I dont hate other races im from Madrid born their but I dont believe thats this country will exist if these standards of "democracy" do not change and if it exist as a legit "country" it will be third world with out a doubt. Immigrants although they contribute money through cheap labor exploit many social programs it puts alot of stress on the economy and absorbs tax dollars because of their health care,crime control resulting from their presence,building jail upholding jails these are all things which absorb money we are bending over back wards and hitting are self in the butt to try to get these immigrants to immigrate and integrate. As if this wasn't bad enough muslims want Spain to use tax dollars to build moscques the list goes on on on I could add so many more hardships which this system entails.

Yes it is part of human nature whites and Spaniards do crimes but when you place people that come from third world countries where their is no law where people kill each other every day where beheadings and shootings are the norm or from the Congo were you find the most desperate people on the planet believe me crime will increase.

The ultimate solution would be to help the developing world develope and help the people in their own countries of course we have to use them instead.

Sources, for immigration stats this is a liberal news source. http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1355583,00.html

Quintos, i see your point,but i can also relate to the people immigrating to spain because even though you do make a good argument, in my opinion it is human nature to go from a place that is bad to a place that is good and can offer you and your family a future and that is what prompts a person in the end to move.now i'm going to ask a personal question, not out of disrespect but out of curiousity.
you wrote that you are from spain(im from Madrid born their)but yet you live in the U.S.(southern california) What if not the search for a better life prompted you to move? Every person who is not rich leaves their country of origin for one of these two reasons: to search for a better life and/or to make a better living.