pim,

In a way, I agree with you, and in a way, I don't. The problem is, most Spaniards refuse to accept the fact that racism does exist, and is a problem. Instead of blaming the situation on not being PC by the standards of other nations, the people have to take a stand that this is intolerable.

What bothers me is that the cartoon, and the situation at the game is not a question of being politically correct. It's a question of sensitivity to the rights of others. Nobody has the right to de-humanize another person, and nobody has the right to make insensitive jokes about ethnic features. They fall far outside the realm of PC.

Unless Spaniards realize this problem exists, the problem will continue to grow. But, how do you change the perception that the whole thing is a question of being politically correct when it's something completely different?

Wolf

Although I support deporting immigrants and avoiding the future intake of them into Spain in less the Spanish vote on the issue and decide that they want immigration.

However,

I completely agree with you it may be my right to want a future for my people but I do not de-humanize or hate anybody I just want my culture and people to continue. Many ethnic hate crimes and cultural racial hate crimes have been done and are currently being done in Spain and elsewhere I consider the massive immigration of people hatred and bigotry towards Spain its a cultural genocide.3-11 was a hate crime on a much larger scale. No Spaniards have in modern times actually gone to another country and dehumanized the inhabitants and slaughtered them like animals in mass numbers like the Arabs Islamist do THEY have a much serious problem. Of course some of you will bring up Cortez the archetype ruthless white conqueror and his evil white army with diseases.

Azmeet writes,
America does not have a culture its only a compilation of many diferent cultures. That wouldnt happen in America because it has a reverse exnophobia it is extremely frightened by racism and some of them are very quick to throw the bigot lable at you.

What may be seen as a racist post to you may not to other people. To be political correct is to be stupid plain and simple we cant ignore the fact that western values and society are under attack. Also their are many racist in England,America,Canada,British Columbia im talking about real racist not people that just have a far right view on immigration like me.

Quintos: America does not have a culture its only a compilation of many diferent cultures. That wouldnt happen in America because it has a reverse exnophobia it is extremely frightened by racism and some of them are very quick to throw the bigot lable at you.
--------------------------------------------------

Let me see...Celts, VisiGoths, Basques, Romans, Greeks, Carthaginians, Phoenicians, North Africans, Arabs. A compilation of different peoples and cultures. Gee...I wonder from what country? This country also has four distinct languages and various dialects and it's citizens don't all claim or care to be known as part of this country. It's most well known foods and music were introduced from other lands. Am I describing the US? Why it's Spain, of course! If you can say that the US has no true culture but a mixture of cultures, than I can say the same for Spain! In your eyes Quintos, which part is the true Spain; Castilla/Leon? Andalucia (with all that nasty Muslim influence), Aragon? How about Catalonia?(yeah, right).

You're right Quintos, what happened at that game wouldn't have occured here in the US, but you are dead wrong regarding the reason. It wouldn't happen because of political correctness but rather because it would be wrong to do so. Now, if it was 50 years ago, yes I would say it could have occurred openly and nothing much would have been written about how badly the crowd was behaving. Racism was still vary much accepted back then, but after under going thru the turmoil of the Civil Rights movement and the change in attitude towards racism Americans view it as wrong. Now, we still have problems with racism and there will always be. But you are wrong to say that we Americans simply do it because of political correctness. And at least we admit that we have problems with racism. As a people we no longer tolerate or accept it.

This won't help Madrid's chances for winning the Olympic Games especially because it occurred in Madrid rather than say Sevilla or Barcelona. A city needs to put it's best foot foward. Unfortunately those fans used that foot to kick themselves in the *ss!

Oso,

Then we end up with the debacle in Detroit on Friday night in the NBA, with a player from Indiana going into the stands after someone who threw a beer in his face.

It wasn't racial to be sure, but it sure gave the sport a serious set back, and the players involved in the fight are going to pay a terrible price, while the fans get off without a word.

The NBA has degenerated to the point that it's no longer the game people enjoyed watching. It's like an African-American friend of mine said; "It's now a game of gangsta-rappers with foul mouths, who use every expletive there is during the game, and the league still says it's 'family entertainment.'"

Adding to the problem, I couldn't make the same comment he did, without being tagged a racist.

I think he's right. I miss the games where technical fouls were called for cussing, and where players respected each other, and the fans cheered for their teams, not get involved in scuffles and fights with players from the other teams.

Maybe what we're dealing here is a "new society," that isn't quite as nice as those in the past. I'd hate to think it, but it appears true.

Wolf

Hey Wolf, I totally agree with you regarding this "new society" attitude. What happened at Detroit was a disgrace and I was thinking about it when I posted my previous message, but as you mentioned it wasn't a racial incident. It's sad that the gangsta mentality has trickled down into our sports, movies, music and way of dress for the young. It sickens me to think that people look up to these types of individuals as some sort of street heroes to be admired. I haven't been to a Lakers games in about 5 years and even longer to a football game. The last time I went the LA Raiders were playing Denver. The crowd was extremely rowdy, it was the first time I had ever felt unsafe at a sports event.

You made a good point in mentioning that there are certain things one group of people can say while others have to been censored. It's unfair and not right. You can't muzzle one group while allowing another to exploit their use of free speech! That's where PC is so bad. I don't like it, it's use has swollen up like a tick to the point that people no longer use common sense.

Racial and ethnic tension is nothing new. You'd think that in our age of "enlightenment" it would have been eliminated. But I still feel that our country with all it's ethnic diversity (and it's richer culturally for it), is much more united than Europe will ever be.

All the more reason to not let more people in. Also most of these ethnic elements Visigoths,Celts,Romans and yes Arabs have intermarried to such an extent in Spain that it is hard to devide Spain among those cultural lines. Very few Spanish see themselves as Arabs or Romans while recent Arab immigrants would and be Islamic.

I don't think Spain has a very big "mix" 7 out of the 8 ethnic people you mention are all in the over all caucasian European scheme except for perhaps the Arabs and Phoenicians,which those elements have been assimilated into the Spanish people and culture. America has many different people that consider themselves Asian Americans,African Americans, Arab Americans etc. while in Spain the no one considers them selves Celt Spaniard or Arab Spanish because they were assimilated only in Galicia are people fascinated by the Celts even though they didnt just occupie Galicia their lands actually extended well past modern day Madrid.

True Spain officialy is the land is the sovereign land. However I believe the true Spain is Iberia or Hispania the name the Romans gave to Spain after the Romanization of Spain. Before the Romans invaded Spain was occupied by a bunch of Celts and Iberians which were for the most part displaced by the Celts. Some people may see themselves as Catalonian,Basque etc. but over all these are cultural elements that are confined to a certain land not the overall people.

Quintos, you're too obsessed with being caucasian! Really, seriously...not even the Scandinavians concern themselves with it, and they're the ones the Nazis admired as being the pure white race! I really don't care how white or what percentage of caucasian Spaniards are, my point, which you NEVER get is that Spain was never one united ethnic group, or had one united language, you even stated that the Romans named the land and gave them most of their culture. So then, maybe you should thank the Italians for your culture, language and identity.

Yes, in America we are grouped into various ethnic groups. America has always claimed to be a nation of immigrants. And that is what makes our country so great because we've been able to pull together and utilize the best resources that each group brings to this land. Asians helped build the railroads, Blacks had the misfortune of building the South thru their slavery among other great achievments, Hispanics tamed the Southwest, Irish and Italian labor built cities, German and English thru their industry. Even though Native Americans suffered at the hands of European immigrants they fed us and taught us to love this land...etc,etc,etc. We're far from perfect but it works! Im tired of you saying we don't have a true culture...bulls**t! Criticize America all you want when you go back to Spain, but not while you're living here (although you have the privilege to do so)enjoying it's freedom, diversity, and in your opinion quasi culture!!!

Madrid better get it's act together and start working on some serious damage control, otherwise it's hasta la vista baby!

The racist chanting was not by a minority, the so called Ultrasurs who stand behind the goal. It was from every section of the ground. I have lived in Madrid and I can categorically say that a lot of madrilenos are racist,not just against blacks but any race who have different cultures.They wont admit it, and they will always point out something in your own country which is worse (eg hooliganism in football, or foxhunting is the classic defense against bullfighting} For Christs sake they lived under a facist dictator for years who died in his bed unopposed.
Close the Bernabeau down, now thats an interesting topic!

Asians helped build the railroads, Blacks had the misfortune of building the South thru their slavery among other great achievments, Hispanics tamed the Southwest, Irish and Italian labor built cities, German and English thru their industry. Even though Native Americans suffered at the hands of European immigrants they fed us and taught us to love this land...etc,etc,etc. We're far from perfect but it works! Im tired of you saying we don't have a true culture...bulls**t!

I understand the sensivity surrounding this issue but I never said your country doesn't have a true culture I said it was a composite of many as you perfectly stated your self.

Quintos, you're too obsessed with being caucasian! Really, seriously...not even the Scandinavians concern themselves with it, and they're the ones the Nazis admired as being the pure white race! I really don't care how white or what percentage of caucasian Spaniards are, my point, which you NEVER get is that Spain was never one united ethnic group, or had one united language, you even stated that the Romans named the land and gave them most of their culture. So then, maybe you should thank the Italians for your culture, language and identity.

All of Europe is united under one thing the fact that we are all recieving massive immigration and all European countries are facing drastic problems with their birthrates we may not all have identical cultures or languages but their is always some thing their that binds us.

Steven77: I don't know if you lived in the same Spain as I live, but I've been in a match in Santiago Bernabeu stadium and I didn't hear racist chants.

Racism exists in Spain, and yes, it may be more tolerated than in other countries, but to say that a lot of madrileños are racist... again, I don't know in which Madrid were you living.

I can speak for my friends and family, and I can assure you none of them would yell in a stadium, nor they will discriminate someone for his color skin.

Fernando