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#55227 - 11/18/04 07:03 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Anchovy Front Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 661
Loc: Southern Spain
I have to say I still find it offensive, whether or not it is not meant to be, or a joke or whatever.

Unfortunately it isn't a one off either. I go to see Malaga every week and quite often if a black player upsets the home crowd it quite often triggers off a chorus of racist abuse and yes it is rascist, similar to the crap we heard last night. Every time it happens I can’t believe it, because we have usually at least three coloured guys on the field playing for the home side. What the hell must they think?? Maybe it is me being too sensitive. I certainly don’t hold back in my abuse of opposition players if they incite the crowd, having been known to question their parentage for example, but I would never stoop so low as to join in with the abuse as mentioned before.

Similarly I am amazed at seeing Nazi salutes and chants of Seig Heil, not only by the Ultras of Malaga but I’ve seen it at other grounds in Spain too. If that was in England the supporters concerned would be thrown out and probably arrested and barred too. Here I have never seen action taken against anyone and I am a bit sceptical if the Spanish Football Association give more than a slap on the wrist after this.

Sad frown
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#55228 - 11/18/04 07:11 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Dommo Offline
Member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 56
Loc: London
Ignacio, you'd be suprised how much FIFA and country associations can do about this sort of thing. In the UK, any fans caught engaging in that kind of behaviour are booted out and banned. They are caught because either another fan might have reported them to stewards or they are caught after the fact on CCTV. You'd be amazed at the levels of CCTV coverage in British football grounds these days.

I agree totally about people drawing blanket conclusions about the Spanish on the basis of these fools. We have had to put up with the same. Some stupid England fans love a fight therefore we are all violent sociopaths.

I just hope FIFA do something about it and the Spanish FA stop turning a blind eye to it.

Let's hope it all dies down a little in the coming weeks. I'm sure the prospect of Barça versus Real Madrid will help distract people! smile

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#55229 - 11/18/04 07:56 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
filbert Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 399
Loc: London
1) The English team was totally outclassed last night. It surprised many (including me) as we had most of our best players available.
2) The English players were quite violent (perhaps because they were frustrated?). Shameful to act this way in a friendly
3) The racist chanting is something we suffered from for many years in the UK. Obviously something needs to change in Spain (perhaps the Bernebeu could be made unavailable for international matches for a period of time?). Maybe the English FA could help in showing how racism has been tackled in the UK game. However I detect some sanctamonious attitudes (not on this BB) by English fans towards the Spanish. I can assure you that when England play Turkey there will be racist songs sung by the English fans, so our game is not perfect yet by a long way.
4) Echoing the previous post, let's hope the Barca-Madrid game helps us to forgot the unacceptable events of last night.
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#55230 - 11/18/04 08:25 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Anonymous
Unregistered


Anchovy:

Quote:

Unfortunately it isn't a one off either. I go to see Malaga every week and quite often if a black player upsets the home crowd it quite often triggers off a chorus of racist abuse and yes it is rascist, similar to the crap we heard last night.
Well, the problem must be that you consider racial insults worse than son of a b*tch, for example. I don't.

Some weeks ago, in a lunch with friends, a "friend" and me begun teasing each other in an increasingly spiral, and at the end he we ended up rather angry, so I looked where I could harm him more and remembered he was extremely special to find the right girl, so I begun to call him "virgin". It happens that I hit the right point and he was , in fact virgin at his 33, and he was (like most men would be) very ashamed of it. Had his weak point (what made him blush) been been black or being white or being too tall or tall small or heterosexual or homosexual, I would have used that all the same. And I am by no means, racist, or sexist, or "sizist". I can't see why colour is worse.

Quote:
Similarly I am amazed at seeing Nazi salutes and chants of Seig Heil, not only by the Ultras of Malaga but I’ve seen it at other grounds in Spain too. If that was in England the supporters concerned would be thrown out and probably arrested and barred too.
Yes, but always the ultras, who are at most 100 or 200 of the ten thousand or hundred thousand fans.

They are not banned and they are even subventioned because they are super-loyal to their clubs (more than anybody else), and are the ones who, in an organized way, start the chants (the regular ones, not only the insulting) to support the team in the fields, thus encouraging players and reinforcing club identity and right environment in the field.

I personally believe that, in spite of this, they should be treated like any other fan, with no advantage.

Quote:
Similarly I am amazed at seeing Nazi salutes and chants of Seig Heil, not only by the Ultras of Malaga but I’ve seen it at other grounds in Spain too. If that was in England the supporters concerned would be thrown out and probably arrested and barred too
Fortunately, being nazi nad hailing like nazis is not forbiddne in Spain, although it's is looked with real disgust by society, police, and judges. But, as they say (and me too): "I don't agree with their thoughts, but I will defend till death their right to think the way they want" (or sth. similar). Freedom of thought and speech must be even for those who do not respect other people's freedom.

Dommo:

Quote:
In the UK, any fans caught engaging in that kind of behaviour are booted out and banned. They are caught because either another fan might have reported them to stewards or they are caught after the fact on CCTV.
Well, here there was a crowd chanting. Either you telll everybody out or you let them be. Cameras and stewards are not enough for this task.

In regular games, when only the hooligans do that, they don't do anything because the above mentioned (answer to Anchovy).

About the rest, I agree, specially with Filbert.

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#55231 - 11/18/04 08:36 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
pim Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 662
Loc: Brussels
"I looked where I could harm him more...."

Gotta love that attitude, so constructive!... frown

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#55232 - 11/18/04 08:49 AM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Anonymous
Unregistered


PIM, I could die for a good friend, but I could kill an enemy.

I suppose you try to help as much as you can those who annoy you. Begin by me, please. :p

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#55233 - 11/18/04 03:01 PM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Murdy Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 314
Loc: Madrid
Jeeze, I was definitely watching a different game from the rest of you. With the mute on and one ear glued to the walkie-talkie because my daughter was sick with bronchitis, I missed all the monkey-chanting business. From the silence on the screen, all I saw was the English playing like it was a game from Segunda B. That was pathetic...as was the crowd's behavior from what you all say.

I was sort of surprised because I thought the people at the Bernabeu had gotten over doing all that. Years ago, monkey chanting was pretty common. I couldn't believe my ears the first time I heard it. I thought to myself, "Are these guys for real? And they say my country (USA) is rascist?" Can anyone imagine people doing something remotely similar at an American football game? There would be riots.

As soon as Real Madrid starting signing on black players, things pretty much calmed down, but they didn't disappear, obviously. Still, I think part of the problem was all the hype made about Aragonés' comments. Luis was definitely out of line, but perhaps the words were culturally misconstrued. In this politically correct world, we can't fathom anyone referring to another in public as "that black guy", or "scum" or whatever he said, I can't remember exactly, but in Spain it is still pretty common to call a black person "el negro" (though a nicer way is "moreno")or an oriental person "el chino" without meaning any harm by it, though that is not always the case. He could have eaisly called him "that french scum". That does justify it? Not really, but people should be aware of it before reaching conclusions.

The pre-game scandal was used to bring a little intensity into the game, and both sides took it too far. Remember it was supposed to be a Friendly. By the way, racist behavior and nazi emblems are not allowed in the stadium (Bernabeu)...and both the directors of the team as well as the press are generally quick to point any incidents out.

Does rascism exist in Spain? Of course,it does. But it does in a lot of places. And the English are not really ones to preach. I go down to Torrevieja every summer and most Brits don't want to have anything to do with the Spanish. And they're in Spain!! And those are the ones who bother coming. There are others who won't set foot in the "PIGS" countries. That is "Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain".

Anyway, I really don't consider Spain to be a racist country. Most Spaniards I know are quite open-minded.

You should also remember that immigration is a fairly new phenomenon here, and as it continues, and with a little hope, certain racial attitudes will begin to fade as culutral diversity grows.

So, I was sorely disappointed to hear about that. Especially since Spain had played so well in the first half and I was happy about the final score. If the UEFA or FIFA decide to take measures, then so be it. The Spanish probably deserve it.

What the Spanish society doesn't deserve is an international examination of its racial views. It's not fair and totally exaggerated.

Spanish hinchas are not a very reliable reflection of Spanish mentality, in my opinion.

Sorry, I was trying to be brief!
_________________________
www.brianmurdock.net

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#55234 - 11/18/04 04:23 PM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Azmeet:
Quote:
Can somebody please explain why the Spanish people find that it is acceptable to do that.
Well, I can give you an accurate explanation: For the same reason english people are racists.

Let me explain myself: please think twice before cataloguing 42 million spaniards as racists cause a few dozens (or hundreds) shouted in a soccer match. Not every spaniard is a racist, nor obviously every english is. I found your statement quite offensive and rather simplistic.

I didn't see the match, nor I find acceptable the racial abuse. No excuses.

However, I think I know the explanation.

Weeks ago, the spanish team coach whispered something during a training session to motivate one of his players (Reyes).

This player (Reyes) is a co-player of Henry, a black player of an english soccer team (Manchester it was?).

Aragonés told him this: "Tell that **** black that you are better than him".

This statement, out of context, is highly offensive and racist. However, if you know that some of the best friends of Aragonés are black (for example Samuel Etoo, a Cameroon player which Aragonés consider almost his son), and said in the fray of an intense training put things in its place. He would have rather said "tell that **** bald that you are better than him". That, in my opinion, was the sense of his, very missfortunate, statement.

English press inmediately took advantage of it and started to warm the ambience towards yesterday match. Yesterday they provoked Aragonés calling him indirectly a racist.

Spanish fans knew it and, in my opinion, tried to make laugh of english press insistence and provocation in a very very regretable and unfortunate way: abusing black english players.

As you may see, we should put things in context to judge this attitude.

Every week there are lots of soccer matchs in Spain and it is not common such behaviour in fans (as you may know, there are dozens of black players in spanish teams) except (and not always) in radical neo-nazi fans (which may sum less than a thousand over a hundred thousand in Real Madrid for example).

Oh, and Aragonés apologized for what he said...

Fernando

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#55235 - 11/18/04 05:22 PM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Fernando,
Do you think that this may affect Madrid's chances for the 2012 Olympics? Just read this in the Sportinglife.com
Quote:
Madrid's mayor Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon on Wednesday presented the official dossier for the city's bid for the 2012 Olympics by praising what Madrid and Spain have to offer.

"Let us face the responsibility. As a city and a country we are communicative, open, transparent and we are in a position to use those virtues to transmit this same dream that in Madrid feeds a true passion for sport, for the meeting of people and for peaceful co-existence," said Ruiz-Gallardon.

Less that 12 hours later, black players in the England football team were subjected to a barrage of vile racist abuse, which ranged from monkey chants to the song "Que no bote negro es!" which can be translated as "whoever doesn't jump up and down is a black."

Next to that, the night's other song of choice from the home fans, "Gibraltar Espanyol", seemed insignificant.

The chanting was not done by a small but vocal minority. Several thousand fans in Real Madrid's Santiago Bernabeu stadium joined in with gusto.

Neither was it done by people who could use a lack of education as an excuse. The vast majority of the crowd were young, upper middle class and likely to be well schooled.

So just where does Spanish sport fit between Gallardon's message of welcome and the chanting masses?

The answer is somewhere in between, although the situation could be improved if the problem was acknowledged.

"Racist chants? This doesn't happen in La Liga or in Spain," said the Spanish FA's press officer Fernando Garrido during Spain coach Luis Aragones' post-match press conference.

Mr Garrido may be a nice man, but in this case he has got his facts sadly wrong.

Only last Thursday, Atletico Madrid midfielder Kiki Musampa was subjected to monkey chants every time he touched the ball during his side's Copa del Rey match in Tarragona.

Maybe it's an exaggeration to say that happens every week in every ground in Spain, but it happens on a regular basis.

You can hear racist abuse quite often in grounds such as Getafe's Colosium Alfonso Perez and Atletico Madrid's Vicente Calderon as well as others.

Some people would prefer to believe the problem does not exist.

"It's one thing to say we have a national coach who lets his mouth run away with him now and then, but something else to see things that are not there," said Marca columnist Miguel Angel Mendez, who insisted accusations of racist chanting during the Spain-England Under-21 game were "a lie."

Indeed, many in the Spanish press believing their English counterparts came over looking for a fight and aiming to cause trouble.

They simply do not understand that Aragones' comments about Thierry Henry last month were offensive and incidents of casual racism are all too common.

Only last week Marca compared Spain's most famous basketball player - Pau Gasol - with Shaquille O'Neal.

"All he has to do is paint himself black and inject silicone into his lips," they joked under a cartoon of Gasol.

Atletico Madrid's recently deceased president Jesus Gil (a man who gave Aragones a job on two different occasions) once commented "I hope they kill the black," after the crowd turned on Atletico's Colombian striker 'Tren' Valencia.

Even former Real Madrid coach Vicente del Bosque, a man considered to be warm-hearted and of a left-wing leaning, showed the lack of progress Spain has made in terms of understanding racial issues.

Four years ago when asked if the signing of black central midfielders Claude Makelele and Flavio Conceicao would be a problem for him, he replied, "The only problem I will have is telling them apart."

frown eek eek
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The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#55236 - 11/18/04 05:38 PM Re: Spanish football fans racially abusing Black English players
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Probably Booklady. Very probably.

UK has made of this a state's issue, with a minister and even Blair himself critisizing the issue and labelling Spain as a racist country.

This won't end here. There is a lot of people (all outside Spain) willing to take this as a crusade against racism. They will want to make example of this. You will probably see the french (Paris is another candidate for the Olympics in 2012) pressing for a sanction.

What a pitty frown

Anyway, there are things with which one shouldn't play, and racist insults is one of them.

Fernando

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