Don't want to sound like a violent nutter but I have a question about 'reasonable force', here's what happended, while in Madrid someone tried to scam by bag while we were dining, basically while we were distracted by another couple one guy leaned over and slid by bag over to his foot. I saw him do it and grabbed the bag back,he got up and walked away as did his two friends.

Later when we were talking about this, my friend was saying 'you should have hit him!' (I'm female and have been involved in martial arts, boxing, thai boxing for some years) 'as he wouldn't have expected that'. Fair enough I thought but I prefer not to unless necessary. I would not know if he had a weapon? - what if I really hurt him? - what if I hurt myself in the process?

I took the opinion that no one was hurt, nothing was taken so it's OK. BUT if he had kept the bag I would have hit him, in the UK I would not have worried about that but what about in Spain? Would I have gotten locked up for striking this thief?

I think you did the right thing in NOT hitting him. Afterall, he did not threaten your safety or well-being so your hitting him would have been considered by the police, should he file charges (which he wouldn't have, of course), as an unprovoked act of violence.

Besides, as you saw that he was acting with a "team", had you hit him the others may have come to help attack YOU where you sat.

MAYBE the best thing would have been to first grab your bag AND THEN shout ¡LADRON!! (which is "THIEF!"), raising the attention of all others around you and thereby making them potential eye-witnesses.

Chances are probably good that they moved on to some other restaurant and tried again.

Police don't take kindly to "victims" beating the stuffing out of muggers either. You can go to jail for that.

Saludos, MadridMan

"I think you did the right thing in NOT hitting him. Afterall, he did not threaten your safety or well-being so your hitting him would have been considered by the police, should he file charges (which he wouldn't have, of course), as an unprovoked act of violence.

Besides, as you saw that he was acting with a "team", had you hit him the others may have come to help attack YOU where you sat.

MAYBE the best thing would have been to first grab your bag AND THEN shout ¡LADRON!! (which is "THIEF!"), raising the attention of all others around you and thereby making them potential eye-witnesses.

Chances are probably good that they moved on to some other restaurant and tried again."

How things have changed You're right of course. I should have called out but I was too taken back.
I have no doubt that they were professional theives. I think I didn't react because he didn't. I know in the UK there would probably have been a scuffle involved, his complete disinterest when I caught him threw me to be honest.

Thank you for your comments.

My two cents:

Thieves in Spain are usually not violent. They will (as in this case) try to steal whatever they can by cheating or distracting you in some way. If you see them stealing, they will go away and will try to steal someone else.

However, if you hit him, he will either run or defend himself by whatever means available (possibly with white arms, very unprobably with fire arms). It is a risk as you see. What will you win by hitting him?

More specificly: According to spanish law self defense is based not on reasonable force, but on "equal force" if you want. I mean that if someone hits you or try to steal your bag violently hitting him would be considered self defense, but attacking him with a knife or shooting him with a pistol would not.

In a similar behaviour, our police agents may only use their fire arms if they are shooted or his or someone else life is in true danger. It is not acceptable to shoot a criminal unless he is shooting someone else or menacing someone's life.

But be careful, as martial arts are considered a grade in self defense, almost as if you were attaking someone with a knife. If you hit someone who doesn't know martial arts it would not be consider self defense.

Of course, you may conceal your martial arts knowledge , and in the worst case (unless you kill your foe or do him serious injuries), if the judge doesn't consider it self defense, you will just have to pay some hundreds euros.

Any way, noone will drop a tear if you give a lesson to a thief If you yell out people may even help (specially being a woman).

Fernando

True, but I believe that, for being considered equal to a knife you have to be a black belt. I, for example, never got the black belt, although I have a similar level, but if somebody investigated my level as a result of a fight, I wouldn't be considered as carrying a blade (arma blanca=white weapon)

My friend had a similar thing happen to him whilst walking along with his girlfriend. A thief walking behind them simply tried to pull his girlfriend's bag off her shoulder. She noticed and turned around. My friend then basically turned round and asked the man what he thought he was doing. The thief just wandered off, my friend followed him for a few metres but the thief showed complete disinterest and off he went. My friend was pretty much stunned with the reaction but it's the norm in Spain. I'd put money on fisticuffs ensuing in the UK but that's more down to the fact that the mugger in the UK is likely to have hit his girlfriend to the floor before running off with the bag.

Given the two options I think I'd rather there be non-violent muggers wandering round rather than knife wielding nutters.