We need to get rid of those d*mmned invading bigfoot... :p

Just a joke.

Many times I can't help looking at them, regardles of race because of their (for me) weird way of dressing, specially when using loose pants, caps, t-shirts, and big sneakers, maybe along with golden or gold chains, tattoos, piercings... It is like when the circus came to town in the old good times.

Nice post. I agree.

I just got back from Madrid and Spain a lovely trip inded and I got to see my family. Any way replying to this thread I must say that Madrid is becoming very multi racial and multi cultural the out skirts of Spain and the small towns and such are still the same very few immagrants. I understand that most people see race is unimportant to a country. However if you look at China Japan or any Asian country they accept 0% immagration dont you guys see this as slightly hyprocritical I understand that those countries all ready have many people in them but couldnt they use some cheap labor especially Japan with its powerfull and booming economy. I my self consider immagration into Europe a very serious problem.

Also with such a high immagration into Spain it could be easy for terriost to enter Europe or Spain and cause havoc for example if we have 20 plus terriost living in Spain they could cause incredible amounts of damage and death and they could easily enter the same way the other immagrants do also many of these immagrants have to have health care at the cost of our tax dollars. I usually see them selling items on the street which of course excuses them from paying ANY tax dollars making them essentially use less to the economy. Many immagrants also work on the illegal drug "industry". Many Peruvians DO work and ive seen them how ever these are also jobs that a Spaniard could be doing.

"?), here they are a tiny minority (probably less than 1%) and ten years ago there were no blacks at all in Spain (I don't remember seeing a black until I was 12 years-old or so)."

quoting, Fernando

That certainly is not the case any more.

Matador, Mar,

I understand your reasonings, but I believe that maybe there it has a certain ethnocentric root.

Europe is not the US, and the US are not Europe. The world is pretty wide, and our perspectives are always small for the world's size, because we are only human beings, not computers. You can't judge a culture merely comparing it with your own culture.

In the 50-60's there were very few black persons in Spain. But there were some, they used to come from Guinea Ecuatorial, a former spanish colony.

They went to the same school and class that the other children. They never found a bus with segregated sits. No one went to a college entrance to protest because a black student was about to start the year. They never saw a "for white only" or "coloured entrance" advice. I'm talking decades ago. Yes, there was a dictatorship in Spain. Nut black citizens from Guinea never found a "for white only".

I don't pretend that there is not any racist person in Spain (if we can tell a racist a "person"). Of course, there are. But, take a look to the US, do you mean that there is a lower percentage of racists in the US that in Spain? Or maybe the "politically correct" way consists in ignoring things we don't like but exist?

I know there are racists here. I live here. But I also know that never was an oficially allowed segregation of any kind even in Franco days. And I know that there are racists in every country that I know, and, why not say this?: Spain is certainly not the country with a bigger percentage of racist "persons" among its population.

You know: "to see the mote in somebody else's eye and not the beam in one's own".

And, my friend, "political correction" don't mean that you have your problems solved... just mean that you try to solve your problems only changing the language.

I always say it but this time more than ever: I know my english should prevent me to speak about these complex matters full of different sensibilities. It's not an easy matter to discuss.

Great article in today's boston globe.http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/08/19/pride_or_prejudice/

Matador that article basically talks about how light complexions are seen as more attractive all around the world.

Wow this topic just keeps going and going! Just a couple of comments-

Fernando, I'm not black, I think you assumed this.

Wolf- I totally agree that isolated incidents (such as mine) should not be regarded as a generalization. I stated that my experiences in Spain were good except for the little incident in Granada. I just wanted to provide a first hand account (I don't recall reading any first hand accounts) of what I experienced and what seemed odd to me, which I think is vital in discussions like these. Everything else may be heresay.

Spaniard- politcal correctness to me is a form of being sensitive toward others (so i'm one to say it's necessary) and while I think it is not directly solving the issues, it defintely serves as a starting point. I think it begins to sensitize people. It's just that I come from a family of diplomats and I have a degree in linguistics so I had to put in my two cents! Sorry:)

Monofeo- Jajaja I just had to laugh at what you said. It was very amusing reading your thoughts! I definitely agree that southern spain is more exciting than the south (US). I've had the priveledge of traveling since I was very young and have been to many different countries..and in my opinion Spain is my favorite!And hell, I loved Granada, aside from my bad experience there. I had no problems anywhere else, everyone took a liking to me...so that is why I am going back to be reunited with mi amorsito catalan. So have fun firstimer!

Uhm, yes I assumed you were (I have to re-read your post ). I don't understand why those women stared at you. People usually stare at people who looks for some reason different, or at people who they are not used to see.

Why do you think they stared at you?

As for political correctness, I think that it is ok to be sensitive and to try to avoid things that may disturb others, but not to the point that it condition our way of behaving in an unreasonable way.

Fernando

Well said, spaniard.

True, and that makes us less free, because there are plenty of things we believe but cannot say, to avoid being called male-chauvinist, racists or whatever...

It also looks a lot like hypocrisy, having to pretend you think always like the majority thinks you should... but sometimes you don't and you have to pretend you do.

thanks God we're not PC and we are, so, free to think and express ourselves frankly and openly, without fear or prohibitions.

Oh, you're right, I didn't mean that PC is completely useless. But I believe that, as any other things in life, you have to find a balance.

I wouldn't say how must the US citizens manage themselves, because I'm not an american and my point of view is obiously influenced by my own culture and experiences.

So judging other countries by the US cultural standards is a mistake. Matador, for example, believes that a painted face has the same meaning that in the US, and that because that, painted faces in Reyes Magos parade are wrong. If you start thinking like this, maybe you'll want to change all things in Spain that you don't like (not to mention non western countries)and making these things more similar than in the US.

Yes, I know, you are not meaning that, but... although there are certain things that are seen as negative in, at least, all the western world (death penalty?), you can't simply aply the US PCness to other countries. So, why making the US PCness the world' standard PCness instead of the German PCness, the Japanese PCness, the Spanish PCness? Eevery national PCness is different from another. Try Japan: there you have a developed and cultured country, with nice and level-minded people, but they have some ethic limits that are incomprehensible and even absurd to western people.

Should we tell the japanese to change, because we don't like or understand certain things of their culture?

In the 60's, there was a Spanish painting exhibition in a Califormia university. The announcing advice was the Francisco de Goya's "Maja desnuda". Then, a group of feminist students complained because they saw that advice as women degrading. And the advice was removed.
Yes, I know, there were the 60's. But it was PCness in its pure form... and, seen from the time distance, do you find it right? do you think that a Goya's classical painting should be removed from the Prado because it's woman degrading? (well, I don't think that the Duchess of Alba thought that the paint degraded her).

I guess you don't think such a thing, because you see it from the distance that time brings, and time diminish the importance of some things.

Well, now think that there is other distance, not the time, but the cultural and geographic distance. Something that you I find obvious, should be absurd to an American person. Something that is obvious to a French, should be absurd to me. In fact, there are things in France that actually seem absurd to me.. and France is just a very close neighbour country. If just crossing the Pyrinees you find some cultural differences that you should be able to interpret to avoid becoming an intransigent and "cerrado de mente" traveller, suppose when you cross the Ocean (and also the line between anglosaxon and greek-roman spheres). "Oh! what's that? a painted face?? are these %&#@# spaniards degrading the black people?? we can't allow this!".

No, I'm sorry, but PCness it's OK applied to your country, but exporting it it's not a good idea.

Oh, did you know that Louis Armstrong painted his face white playing the Carnival King in New Orleans, and many black associations complained about that and felt ashamed of him? They said that Armstrong was degrading his own people. And Armstrong felt bad because that: he was only following a local tradition in an innocent way. He said that he wanted to play the King since he was a Kid, that it was the biggest dream in life. But, you know, it was not PC.

If this sort of misinterpretations may take place among people from the same country and the same race... "por Dios", don't travel the world thinking that the rest of the world (even Europe) is behind you. Things are not so simple.

Oh! If I didn't think that there are people here who can teach me many things, I wouldn't come here. Don't worry, I'm practicing my english and in about 200 years I'll be capable to discuss this in English with a reasonable depth and fluency.