In response to ESpañol20 90% of crime is caused by non spanish immigrants, hmmmmm
The problem with the racist PURITAN Spanish is that they dont like to mix with people other than other spaniards......
The Racist francista government wont give working papers to non Eu Citizens which mostly affects Latin americans, they have no right to Paro or other benefits.....
There is a problem here in Madrid with the attitude of Madrileños in relation with anyything thats different and has a non spanish way of thinking or behaving at times living here is like living in a dictator regime,
WAKE UP ESPAÑA AND WELCOME TO THE YEAR 2004

First: Your topic was moved here to the "About Spain" forum because it refers to the people of Spain or about the country of Spain.

Second: To make a generalization that "The Spanish are Racists" is EXTREMELY harsh and unfair. That's like saying "The French are snobs" or "Americans are ethnocentric, uneducated war-mongers" and does not describe the norms of a people.

Your statement is UNfair and is, in itself, a kind of RACIST statement, generalizing and stigmatizing an entire people (even though "Spanish" is not a race) for the acts of a few.

DEFINITIONS:

racism
rac·ism
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

stigmatize
stig·ma·tize
1. To characterize or brand as disgraceful or ignominious.
2. To mark with stigmata or a stigma.
3. To cause stigmata to appear on.

Sincerely, MadridMan

in response to your reply madridman when you live here you can pass judgement firstly....o.k
and why you compared my observation with the stereotypes of other nations, I don´t know.....
my statement is based on truth in response to a racist statement presented by a spaniard thet 90% of crime in españa is commited by people of non spanish ethnicity....
So madridman when you live here call yourself madridman....
and then you can truly comment on issues which affect us madrileños.
secondly re-evaluate what it is you are judging before you make judgement.
Thanks and now hard feelings´....
oh and god bless Amerika

Couldn't agree with you more. Words to live by, I'd say. I think I hear the UK calling you back home - if they'll have you.

Now way man iam here to stay regardless of the criticism I love Madrid........i´ve got my Visa.iam an EU citizen no problems there...... my worst criticism´s are kept for those of english speaking countries...wouldn´t want to live there even if you told me it was god´s country.......
have a nice life.........keep learning spanish.............MadRid Man?.........and when you have citizenship to live here and now about daily life here, tell me a thing or two about Madrid.
thankyou and god bless your country

Hey Tony, I don't know how long you've been living in Madrid but MM has been to and visited most of Spain many times. He has many friends there and has gotten to know the Spanish people intimately. Have you bothered to read his journals regarding his trips there? I don't need to defend him as he can do this himself, but your comments regarding him having to live there before passing judgement or making comments on the attitude of Madrilenos is a bit laughable considering his knowlege of the city.

Regarding racist attitudes of Spaniards, well one racist comment by someone in a city doesn't make a whole group of people racist. Even if Spaniards have pride in themselves so do many other people. Im sure there are racists in Spain...as well as in France, Germany, USA, Japan. etc. Can you honestly say that Brits are humble, down to earth people? Talk about racists! Im sure the Irish, French, Italians and Spaniards have a few choice words to say about that.

Im half Spanish and have family members from Spain and I have never heard one racist comment from them. Yes, Spain has a problem with Morrocans and Latin Americans and other groups but so do many other countries such as the US. When people get frustrated with the situation it's easy to blame the foreigner for the troubles they see. It's part of human nature to be wary of others who are different than ourselves, unfortunately.

You don't mention how long you've lived in Madrid. Are you familiar with the rest of Spain?
MadridMan is...he knows Spain. Take time to familiarize yourself with his website. Then maybe your opinion might change.

Like I said and like I frimly beleive you can only talk about a place and pass judgement about life somewere when you have LIVED THERE, it doesn´t matter how many times you visit somewere as a visitor, it´s impossible to get a full picture of the daily difficulties and frustrations.

So because you "live" in Madrid you know Spain? I see....where else in Spain have you lived? You say that you must live somewhere to talk about it and pass judgement...there's some truth to that, well I suppose there are many tour guides, diplomats, merchants, etc. that don't know the places they visit.

To say that SPANIARDS are racists is wrong because you have not lived all over Spain, only Madrid, so your opinions should be limited to your experiences in Madrid.

please before any more stupid remarks read the racist statement by epañol20 regarding crime and immigration here..
and decide who to direct the criticism at..
gracias a todos y muy buenas noches.

TonyBalogne, how can you criticize MadridMan's Spanish, when you yourself are still learning the language? See post from last september below.
" tony lionni
Junior Member
Member # 3904

posted 09-15-2003 12:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hola Todos
Iam from Manchester England and thinking of doing a "David Beckham" and coming to Madrid in March 2004. "Yo hablas un bien nivel de Espanol"
I was wondering what difficulties English people have found in finding work, Could anybody point me in the right direction, I have worked in call centres here in England, I have studied Fashion at University, Iam a known D.j here in Manchester.
and have also dj'd recently at a good club in Valencia called "Latex community" Any help would be appreciated.
Ciao Tony Lionni

[ 09-15-2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: MadridMan ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 25 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003 | IP: Logged "
So before you criticize people as you seem to love to do, why not check yourself? You just sound silly.

So, Tonni, if (I don't think so) a 90% of the crimes were committed by other ethnias, we shouldn't be able to say it?

If most crimes were done by bakers or lawyers I would say it too, and if they were made by the elder , just the same.

One doesn't need to be statistics-blind or go through the streets with his eyes closed to void being called racist.

Thanks mincy and by the way it´s against website regulations to post or advertise your own business on this website like you are doing...

I'm sorry that you are unfamiliar with MadridMan's rules Tony. Take care.

really mincy he has been notified of your illegal doings
god bless amerika

toni lionni is apparently hoping to join an "elite" (i.e. "notorious") group of past message board members.

Well, I think there are differences between polemic posters and pure trolls.

Like I said madridman you should have took off the statement by español20 it was clearly racist and unfounded

Tony...it's God bless America! God, not god...America...not amerika. I know you're trying to be sardonic but after reading your previous posts, your English is rather poor considering you're British! I hope your Spanish is better since you live in Madrid.

I'm relatively new to this site but I just felt that I had to express my opinion. I don't know how long Tony has been in Madrid, but I LIVED there for over 12 years. I have also had the opportunity to live in the province of Barcelona. I have also lived in Dorset (England). I want Tony to know that I have met people who are racist in each place I have lived BUT I cannot and will not consider these people representative of each place as a whole. Racism sadly exists but putting an entire population of people into the category of "racist" is not acceptable. I hope that after Tony has spent more time in Spain and has truly gotten to know the people there, he will change his mind about the Spanish people.
Thank you Madridman for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts here.

marilisa

After reading tonylionni posts I have the disturbing feeling that I have wasted some minutes of my life

I won't make any comment on his statements.

Fernando

Tonylionni...

Gee, you've lived in Madrid, what, a WHOLE 5 MONTHS? I guess that makes you the expert. Funny, I've been here 4 years next week, and haven't even scratched the surface. . .

Yes there are racists here, but there are really good, fine people here too. As in the USA there are a few jerks too. The main thing is not to become one yourself! Currently I have a war of opinions going with Gazpacho, but I still respect him (and I think he respects me) even if we are 180 degrees apart politically.

If I were you I would think long and hard about "dissing" MadridMan, your host. While he is the epitome of civility, he has about 5,000 loyal board members (I guess minus 2, counting Pauly) who would be ready to defend him against you or anyone else (not that he needs it). State your opinions, but keep it civil and you will be fine.

I have the pleasure of knowing MM, and you just won't find a more "stand up" person. He has put together one of the best sites on the www, which has benefited many, many people (including, apparently, yourself), and, speaking as a webmaster and former BBS boardmaster (for Artsnet with the Western States Arts Federation, of which I was the Information Services Manager) from a time before there was an internet, that is no small accomplishment.

I believe Tonylionni is no longer with us!

Just saw the good news on another obnoxious post by him. Where's the party going to be held?

Well, like it or not, those are the statistics about VIOLENT crime in Spain, of course in order to know them one must read the paper or watch tv and that would mean being able to understand/read in Spanish....or English for that matter, reasonably well, and apparently that's a problem for some....

All this nonsense (also on the "Spanish tv is bad" thread) is starting to remind me a little of a hotel review I read last week on Tripadvisor.com. My God! it made me so angry and so sad to think such ignorant people exist! It was a British citizen supposedly reviewing a nice four-star hotel somewhere in Almeria, if I remember correctly, and going on and on complaining about how "too many Spanish children everywhere" had ruined their entire holidays. His kids could never use the pools because there were too many Spanish kids there speaking Spanish, etc....(I mean did they think they had the coodies, or was this person so stupid he thought his own kids being exposed to a language other than English would turn them into " horrible aliens" as well?).

He went on to say something along the lines of: "Thankfully there was this English pub called **whatever** in town that was a true haven for us and the only thing worthwhile out of our 10-day vacation...."

I mean, this goes to show you that sadly NOT EVERYONE in this planet is fit (intellectually) to leave their couches and bars/joints around the corner, let alone travel abroad, doesn't it?
I was specially aggravated because he targetted kids so much . What kind of kids should you mostly expect to encounter when you travel to THEIR country, you dumbass?!!! I wonder how well behaved his own children were with that kind of education (poor them, though!), and why/if the kids from The Netherlands, Germany etc....that surely were there too didn't bother him/them? (maybe they couldn't even tell the difference)
It's just so unfair! How would he feel if somebody stated that; too many British drunks can spoil part of some people's holidays in the Mediterranean coast of Spain...instead of all the drunks from wherever?

Of course all the other reviews were favourable, which didn't surprise me....This guy never once mentioned the food, the beach, etc....like the others did (of course his family must have spent hours eating pub grub and watching Sky tv on the 'telly')
Nobody needs to "welcome" that kind of tourism....

I'm so sorry I don't remember the details of the hotel so I could quote and post this man's exact words....and SORRY I had to vent about this! :o

pim wrote WOW! And VENT you DID!! hehehe...

Just goes to show that "Travel" means different things to different people. Some Travel in order to experience different cultures and LEARN something about other parts of the world. OTHERS travel to be pampered, catered to, and have the world served to them on a silver platter. The latter is fine in some cases, if you're going to a spa, for example, but one should also respect his surroundings and the people serving him and realize he's a visitor there - NOT THE OWNER.

So no. Clearly ALL SPANIARDS ARE NOT RACISTS. I think most fair-minded people realize this. Those who don't can stay home and watch their home-based situation comedies and "reality shows" (which are SO UNREAL it's not even funny - what a misnomer <where's my dictionary?>).

Saludos, MadridMan (a little "vent" for me, please. And do serve it on a silver platter, won't you, love? hehehe..)

Apparently the guy was upset that he wasn't made CEO of a Spanish company just because he showed up speaking English. Maybe he found out he had to work his way up the ladder like everyone else.

Its amazing how people will throw out the race card so willingly if they feel they wanted more and didn't get it, even if they are unqualified.

Now... that is not a racist comment, because my guess is he's Anglo. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.... unfortunately.

Yes, there is racism in Spain. There is everywhere. No nation is exempt from it existing. His attempt to categorize all Spaniards as racists is stupid. Its also sour grapes for his own ineptness.

Wolf

At least the guy's kids got a little exposure to other children (I guess, and were probably wishing they were back with the other kids when the family was sequestered in the pub!). Maybe the children will remember and not end up like their father. I think these types generally are self-regulating: they are so miserable away from home that they soon give up and hopefully stay in their own neighborhoods, hopefully never to leave again.

And amigo Wolf, I don't think anyone could take your comment as being racist. There's nothing in it about race!

Pim and Madridman, I totally agree! It reminds me of last year when I had a few days alone in Greece after my friends left, and I went to some random island and (accidentally) stayed in this area full of package tourists. They were so loud and drunk and every restaurant on the road catered to American and British tourists. It was a little depressing so I went to another (way less touristy) town a few kms away for the evening. I watched some greek singers and sat outside with a beer and talked to my Greek waiter for a few hours after he got off his shift. I learned all about the history of the island, an earthquake, how they live, etc. It was so much fun. I love to get drunk and be crazy as much as the next person but it was such a nice surprise to hang out with a real Greek person and learn something. It was a nice memory!

OK, now I'm getting way off the original topic. How do I tie it in - people aren't racist if you stop acting like a tourist and give them a chance?

Chicagoan wrote: Nice save. hehehe...

Pim and Chicagoan:

There's many people that travel just as if they were visiting a theme park. That's Ok, I mean, I've got nothing against that kind of travelling.

But I think they are missing the greatest pleasure, and one of the most wonderful and enrichening experiences that a human being could have in his/her life: knowing other cultures, meeting other people, getting a wider view of the world and the mankind, getting a little free from your own country's stereotypes, and becoming maybe a little better individual.

I can't understand some things: is someone worried because his children interact with non-english speaking children? Man, that could be a immensely precious and unforgetable experience for you children! It's as simple as: if you children know a little bit of other cultures, if they play with other language/country/race/planet children, that helps them to grow up and getting smarter, self-confident... for a kid, a travel is a treasure for the rest of the lifetime.

Each travel is a great, unpayable chance in your life. But, you know, there are, for example, those "little Britains" along the spanish coast, where you can't manage if you don't speak english, and which many of its inhabitants don't seem to want to manage in spanish and deal with natives. It's OK with me, it's just an option, I don't want to be critic. But, "tío", it's a pity. Such a precious opportunity to live, to experience, to learn.

I can't figure myself living in Nigeria but never going out my little spanish ghetto with spanish food, spanish drinks, spanish partys, spanish friends, and without caring about the local people, the local history, the local culture.
I can't figure myself living in Chicago and eating every single day a paella in a spanish restaurant, and just talking to the spaniards there, and worried because -you know- in the Chicago pool every child speaks english, and my poor poor little spaniards can't play with them because of the language. ("Además", when did you hear that children need a common idiom to play together?).

That's all, I just wanted to say that travelling without trying to learn, is like going to the Niagara Falls and sitting down to read the newspaper:

-"Wow, so you were at the Niagara Falls."
-"Yeah"
-"And, did you enjoy the experience?"
-"mm.. yes, it was OK, I readed the newspaper. It was ok. A good newspaper.".
-"But, did you see the falls?"
-"The.. what??... I was trying to read my newspaper but there was a lot of noise, and it was raining hard!".

Yes, some people seems to care only about the noise.

I, personally, LOVE the noise! Especially SPANISH noise. I listen to Spanish music and watch Spanish TV, rent Almodovar movies, sometimes just to soak up the ambience in the background and to hear a madrileno accent. And I don't think I'm much different than many of the board members on here. I think, that no matter where you go, as a traveller, the noises that you hear is a large part of the experience.
Oh, and the Spanish aren't racist.

Hello everyone,

I had to answer to tonylionni!!! I’m from Spain and I have to tell you that you have gone a little too far with your comment.
”The problem with the racist PURITAN Spanish is that they dont like to mix with people other than other spaniards......” What kind of people had you meet??? Please, get to know us and then give your opinion. I had live in US for some years, and believe me I mixed with people from all over the world.
”The Racist francista government wont give working papers to non Eu Citizens which mostly affects Latin americans, they have no right to Paro or other benefits.....”
“Francista” doesn’t exist. I don’t know if you mean fascista or franquismo. Anyway, allow me to explain a couple of things to you.
First, correct me if I’m wrong, but as much as I know, is a EU law not to give working papers to non EU citizens.
I’m not sure if you understand what is the “paro”. In order to get paro you have to work for some time and at the same time pay taxes. Why a person that doesn’t pay taxes should have paro (either Spanish or immigrant)?. We can cut out the pensions of the retirement and give that money to the immigrants, our elders will die of starvation. But that way we will not be racist.
”There is a problem here in Madrid with the attitude of Madrileños in relation with anyything thats different and has a non spanish way of thinking or behaving at times living here is like living in a dictator regime, “ Are you talking about Madrid in Spain??? Definitively we are living in two different cities.
Anyway, I’ll be more than glad to meet you and show you how wrong you are. On the other hand I will strongly recommend you to check your behaviour towards others, maybe, only maybe, that’s the problem.
Ufff, I feel a lot better now!
Take care

Uff! OK, I REALLY hope this post is not misinterpreted by non-Spaniards since I'm pretty sure Spanish folks will instantly relate and know what I'm talking about; however, being aware as I am that other people come from various different places regarding these issues....mmmm

OK, I strongly believe what many times what foreigners interpret as racism on our part is mere ingenuousness, mixed with downright lack of PCness (compared to other countries), with a traditional lack of exposure, if you will, to races other than our own (until very recent decades, that is), often even, with a more natural or less twisted approach to things, I dare say. I can give two examples that will hopefully illustrate what I'm trying to convey much better than any reasoning I may express:

Two days ago a female athlete that has won the first and, for now! only medal for Spain in these Olympics was being interviewed on tv; she was explaining how she had "lived" the competition and she said something like:
"I do know I had competed against (whomever, another European) before.... but I'm not too sure I have ever done it against So-and-so (from China), since, you know, they all look (refering to Asians as a whole, supposedly) pretty much alike...."
Now, being a Spaniard I KNOW the woman's intentions weren't....heck, she had no intentions!, she was expressing herself in a very naïve way, that's all. Of course I'm not saying Asian people shouldn't be offended upon hearing this, it's up to each individual to judge if they were deliberately beeing referred to in a derogatory way, though I assure you, it's not the case. So blame her (and many of us) for ignoring how to recognize and differentiate between peoples and failing to tell Asian people appart easily sometimes....guilty! :o

2nd. example:
I distinctly remember (former¿?) board member LIM, Lost in Madrid (he is missed!), relating how he had gone to see the 'Cabalgata de los Reyes Magos' (The parade of the 3 Wise Men) one January 5th. in Madrid and had been shocked and disgusted to see a white person with his face painted dark impersonating King Baltasar.
Sorry but that was his Northamerican mentality making conclusions when in reality, the fact had nothing to do with racism, it's simply what has traditionally been done for as long as the Parades have taken place that day in every Spanish major city. We're talking back when there were NO black people living in this country other than some ambassador or consul from some African nation and some US military men living at the, now extinct, military bases....Yes, in the future surely more and more true black fellows will "play" the black king, but for now, usually it's celebrities, sports people, artists or politicians who get to represent the kings on the Parades and, for the moment, there just aren't many coloured in Spain (I know some soccer players have done it), but the paint IS NOT in any way meant to insult, criticize or offend anyone; just part of a disguise..

Having said this; of course there is blatant racism in Spain sometimes as everywhere else in the world probably.

I agree in a 100%.

The King Baltasar's example is simply perfect. Don't judge the facts if you don't have the knowledge of its precedents. A painted white man playing King Baltasar is not a racist sarcasm. Until 15 or 20 years ago, there were not black people in Spain (in my whole neighbourhood there was one black family among several thousands, and they had a good relationship with their neighbours), so someone was needed to play Baltasar in every district, and, according to tradition, Baltasar is black. When you are a little child, you don't want to see three white Wise Men, because you just KNOW that King Baltasar is black.

Oh, what about that single black man in my neighborhood? Well, I have a picture of a little child (me) carried in arms by a true black King Baltasar. Of course, I didn't know that he was my neighbour (he was wearing a King's dress and crown: that was enough disguise for the little and not very smart child that I was), and I was happy because Baltasar was my favourite King (every child has his/her favourite) and I was with him.

One Reyes Magos parade, (I don't remember this but my parents told me the history), I was waving King Baltasar when I saw a piece of unpainted skin under his sleeve, and I became confused and disappointed. My parents tried to convince me that it was an optical illusion, but it seems that I got sad because King Baltasar was not King Baltasar, because he wasn't black.

As you see, that was a childhood of racism: I didn't like white Baltasars.

But, if you look at it wanting or expecting to see the black paint as a racist stuff, well, you'll probably see a racist stuff. Bu perhaps you won't see the truth.

Just apply this to many other things: maybe things have another explanation.

And, if you really met a true racist, well.. you can met "gilipollas" in Spain, the UK, the USA, China, Germany, Uruguay, Liberia and even on planet Mars, I guess. But first, check out if what you seeing is true racism.

I Think that this is something that is a part of the culture. Europe is not p.c.(politicall correct). Think about it. In europe if you are applying for a job They want your picture. The next thing is that many jobs say that ages 18 to 40 ages will be considered. These are things that are not permitted in the united states. In an interview they are not even supposd ask your religion (in the u.s.). Spain and europe are a little behind.
As for los reyes Magos. I went too the event in barcelona last year. They used a black person as the king which was good.
In the past 20's 30's black face was put on by whites in the usa to make fun of blacks in the theatre.It was very offensive. Some of the tile work on certain buildings in spain have a portrayal of blacks that would be unacceptable in the U.S. Many spaniards may say or do things, but not realize that it is racist because it is a part of the culture. I don't think that these things will change until people of different ethnicities are in the spanish government. By the way pim no one says coloured anymore.

Umm, how can someone be a racist if his intention is not to denigrate other due to his race? Would someone be a racist just because in other country his attitude may be considered racist (no matter his intention)?

Fernando

I completely agree with Matador...Europe is going thru what the US did in the 50s- 70S...immigration there is a fairly new and most people don't know how to deal with it. There are still problems in the US in terms of dealing with this issue, but I think Americans are a little more sensitive/compassionate (perhaps due to the civil rights movement.) My experiences in Spain have been generally good. However, I was treated a little differently in Granada. I walked into a salon to get your run of the mill pedicure and when I walked in all of the girls behind the counter kept staring at me negatively. I had no idea why. Perhaps because I didn't look like them? Or because they heard my mexican accent? Or did my striking beauty make them jealous??? the latter is totally a joke! Who knows but it was wierd. NOw i know what it was like to be black in the 50s.

Mar, do you have an idea of how many american blacks are in Spain? Estimation: Less than 500 (between a population of 42 millions).

It is much more probably that they stared at you due to curiousity and surprise than racism...

I have never seen an american black here, only in the States. Yes, we have now many blacks in Spain, but they are from Senegal, Liberia,... and they are very very poor (usually they have entered Spain illegaly) so they don't usually go to salons...

It is almost always for the same reason: judging one country's behaving by tacit rules of another country.

I don't say they should have stared at you (it is obviously not polite) but I really think you missjudged their intentions.

I have to make real efforts not to stare at a black when I see one. In the States it is a large minority (30% perhaps?), here they are a tiny minority (probably less than 1%) and ten years ago there were no blacks at all in Spain (I don't remember seeing a black until I was 12 years-old or so).

Fernando

Mar, could it be that they noticed the nopal stuck to your forhead? Or the China-poblana dress you were wearing? Just kidding! I am making an assumption you are Mexican-American like myself from your post.

Could it be by the way you were dressed, that they new you were a foreigner? I know that can attract attention. I know when I was in Mexico City, I go a lot of stares for wearing shorts. It must have been my sexy legs! lol Or,...and I don't mean to sound sexist, but maybe its because you are foreign women. I have seen women more critical of another women for no other reason than she is different from their idea of what a women should be like. Maybe, you were just too much competition?

Well, we (me and my partner) will be going to Spain for the first time in 23 days...and counting (I am practically jumping out of my skin at the excitement). I truly feel that we will not have any problems. I would probably be more apprehensive traveling in parts of the South of the good ole US of A, then I would in Europe. No offense intended to those of you who live in the South. Its just my opinion.

BTW Madrid Man, thanks for being so diligent in ousting those troublemakers like Tony. Some people just have a bad attitude towards life, and perpetuate their own negative experiences. Good riddens!

José Luis "Louie"

Actually Spaniards look at African-American and Anglos much the same when they see us on the streets in Spain. We dress differently, and they notice the difference immediately, and it draws attention to the fact that we are "tourists."

I think reading anything else into the issue, and suggesting that Spaniards are racists because of Baltazar, or any other isolated situation that isn't PC in the US is reaching for straws to find reasons to call them racist.

Read PIM's post carefully. She explained everything quite well related to the fact that Spaniards don't spend 24 hours a day trying to be politically correct.

I have very large feet, and when I would sit on benches in busy parks, people would stare at my feet. In fact I had one old couple that stopped walking, and came back to take a second look. Then they went on their way. Were they prejudiced against me because of my feet? Not at all. They were curious. In fact they asked me how I could possibly find shoes to wear. I told them that in the US it was difficult, but they were available in better stores. They just smiled and told us to have a nice day, they continued their walk.

I certainly am not going to say "Spaniards are bigots when it comes to large feet." That would be absurd.

Anyway, there is always a degree of prejudice anywhere you go. Even in the US you hear people comment that we have to "stop immigration" because these damned foreigners are taking up all the jobs. That's prejudice in its own right, but it doesn't state anything about color of skin, its just a preference that immigration cease. That's the case in Spain too, where jobs aren't as plentiful as the people would like. But don't take that as being a racist comment, it's a concern for self betterment and you hear it anywhere you go.

Anyway, that's my take on the issue.

Wolf

We need to get rid of those d*mmned invading bigfoot... :p

Just a joke.

Many times I can't help looking at them, regardles of race because of their (for me) weird way of dressing, specially when using loose pants, caps, t-shirts, and big sneakers, maybe along with golden or gold chains, tattoos, piercings... It is like when the circus came to town in the old good times.

Nice post. I agree.

I just got back from Madrid and Spain a lovely trip inded and I got to see my family. Any way replying to this thread I must say that Madrid is becoming very multi racial and multi cultural the out skirts of Spain and the small towns and such are still the same very few immagrants. I understand that most people see race is unimportant to a country. However if you look at China Japan or any Asian country they accept 0% immagration dont you guys see this as slightly hyprocritical I understand that those countries all ready have many people in them but couldnt they use some cheap labor especially Japan with its powerfull and booming economy. I my self consider immagration into Europe a very serious problem.

Also with such a high immagration into Spain it could be easy for terriost to enter Europe or Spain and cause havoc for example if we have 20 plus terriost living in Spain they could cause incredible amounts of damage and death and they could easily enter the same way the other immagrants do also many of these immagrants have to have health care at the cost of our tax dollars. I usually see them selling items on the street which of course excuses them from paying ANY tax dollars making them essentially use less to the economy. Many immagrants also work on the illegal drug "industry". Many Peruvians DO work and ive seen them how ever these are also jobs that a Spaniard could be doing.

"?), here they are a tiny minority (probably less than 1%) and ten years ago there were no blacks at all in Spain (I don't remember seeing a black until I was 12 years-old or so)."

quoting, Fernando

That certainly is not the case any more.

Matador, Mar,

I understand your reasonings, but I believe that maybe there it has a certain ethnocentric root.

Europe is not the US, and the US are not Europe. The world is pretty wide, and our perspectives are always small for the world's size, because we are only human beings, not computers. You can't judge a culture merely comparing it with your own culture.

In the 50-60's there were very few black persons in Spain. But there were some, they used to come from Guinea Ecuatorial, a former spanish colony.

They went to the same school and class that the other children. They never found a bus with segregated sits. No one went to a college entrance to protest because a black student was about to start the year. They never saw a "for white only" or "coloured entrance" advice. I'm talking decades ago. Yes, there was a dictatorship in Spain. Nut black citizens from Guinea never found a "for white only".

I don't pretend that there is not any racist person in Spain (if we can tell a racist a "person"). Of course, there are. But, take a look to the US, do you mean that there is a lower percentage of racists in the US that in Spain? Or maybe the "politically correct" way consists in ignoring things we don't like but exist?

I know there are racists here. I live here. But I also know that never was an oficially allowed segregation of any kind even in Franco days. And I know that there are racists in every country that I know, and, why not say this?: Spain is certainly not the country with a bigger percentage of racist "persons" among its population.

You know: "to see the mote in somebody else's eye and not the beam in one's own".

And, my friend, "political correction" don't mean that you have your problems solved... just mean that you try to solve your problems only changing the language.

I always say it but this time more than ever: I know my english should prevent me to speak about these complex matters full of different sensibilities. It's not an easy matter to discuss.

Great article in today's boston globe.http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/08/19/pride_or_prejudice/

Matador that article basically talks about how light complexions are seen as more attractive all around the world.

Wow this topic just keeps going and going! Just a couple of comments-

Fernando, I'm not black, I think you assumed this.

Wolf- I totally agree that isolated incidents (such as mine) should not be regarded as a generalization. I stated that my experiences in Spain were good except for the little incident in Granada. I just wanted to provide a first hand account (I don't recall reading any first hand accounts) of what I experienced and what seemed odd to me, which I think is vital in discussions like these. Everything else may be heresay.

Spaniard- politcal correctness to me is a form of being sensitive toward others (so i'm one to say it's necessary) and while I think it is not directly solving the issues, it defintely serves as a starting point. I think it begins to sensitize people. It's just that I come from a family of diplomats and I have a degree in linguistics so I had to put in my two cents! Sorry:)

Monofeo- Jajaja I just had to laugh at what you said. It was very amusing reading your thoughts! I definitely agree that southern spain is more exciting than the south (US). I've had the priveledge of traveling since I was very young and have been to many different countries..and in my opinion Spain is my favorite!And hell, I loved Granada, aside from my bad experience there. I had no problems anywhere else, everyone took a liking to me...so that is why I am going back to be reunited with mi amorsito catalan. So have fun firstimer!

Uhm, yes I assumed you were (I have to re-read your post ). I don't understand why those women stared at you. People usually stare at people who looks for some reason different, or at people who they are not used to see.

Why do you think they stared at you?

As for political correctness, I think that it is ok to be sensitive and to try to avoid things that may disturb others, but not to the point that it condition our way of behaving in an unreasonable way.

Fernando

Well said, spaniard.

True, and that makes us less free, because there are plenty of things we believe but cannot say, to avoid being called male-chauvinist, racists or whatever...

It also looks a lot like hypocrisy, having to pretend you think always like the majority thinks you should... but sometimes you don't and you have to pretend you do.

thanks God we're not PC and we are, so, free to think and express ourselves frankly and openly, without fear or prohibitions.

Oh, you're right, I didn't mean that PC is completely useless. But I believe that, as any other things in life, you have to find a balance.

I wouldn't say how must the US citizens manage themselves, because I'm not an american and my point of view is obiously influenced by my own culture and experiences.

So judging other countries by the US cultural standards is a mistake. Matador, for example, believes that a painted face has the same meaning that in the US, and that because that, painted faces in Reyes Magos parade are wrong. If you start thinking like this, maybe you'll want to change all things in Spain that you don't like (not to mention non western countries)and making these things more similar than in the US.

Yes, I know, you are not meaning that, but... although there are certain things that are seen as negative in, at least, all the western world (death penalty?), you can't simply aply the US PCness to other countries. So, why making the US PCness the world' standard PCness instead of the German PCness, the Japanese PCness, the Spanish PCness? Eevery national PCness is different from another. Try Japan: there you have a developed and cultured country, with nice and level-minded people, but they have some ethic limits that are incomprehensible and even absurd to western people.

Should we tell the japanese to change, because we don't like or understand certain things of their culture?

In the 60's, there was a Spanish painting exhibition in a Califormia university. The announcing advice was the Francisco de Goya's "Maja desnuda". Then, a group of feminist students complained because they saw that advice as women degrading. And the advice was removed.
Yes, I know, there were the 60's. But it was PCness in its pure form... and, seen from the time distance, do you find it right? do you think that a Goya's classical painting should be removed from the Prado because it's woman degrading? (well, I don't think that the Duchess of Alba thought that the paint degraded her).

I guess you don't think such a thing, because you see it from the distance that time brings, and time diminish the importance of some things.

Well, now think that there is other distance, not the time, but the cultural and geographic distance. Something that you I find obvious, should be absurd to an American person. Something that is obvious to a French, should be absurd to me. In fact, there are things in France that actually seem absurd to me.. and France is just a very close neighbour country. If just crossing the Pyrinees you find some cultural differences that you should be able to interpret to avoid becoming an intransigent and "cerrado de mente" traveller, suppose when you cross the Ocean (and also the line between anglosaxon and greek-roman spheres). "Oh! what's that? a painted face?? are these %&#@# spaniards degrading the black people?? we can't allow this!".

No, I'm sorry, but PCness it's OK applied to your country, but exporting it it's not a good idea.

Oh, did you know that Louis Armstrong painted his face white playing the Carnival King in New Orleans, and many black associations complained about that and felt ashamed of him? They said that Armstrong was degrading his own people. And Armstrong felt bad because that: he was only following a local tradition in an innocent way. He said that he wanted to play the King since he was a Kid, that it was the biggest dream in life. But, you know, it was not PC.

If this sort of misinterpretations may take place among people from the same country and the same race... "por Dios", don't travel the world thinking that the rest of the world (even Europe) is behind you. Things are not so simple.

Oh! If I didn't think that there are people here who can teach me many things, I wouldn't come here. Don't worry, I'm practicing my english and in about 200 years I'll be capable to discuss this in English with a reasonable depth and fluency.

And that system of changing names doesn'thelp at all.

Look at the spanish evolution for mentally handicapped:

tarados - ... - retrasados - ... - discapacitados mentales

I can't recall them all, but them all were words that meant something not specially offensive, in this case:

imperfect, defective - ... - retarded -... - mentally handicapped

None of these were insulting in its time, they were PC, but with time these words have became kind of insults because the meaning that is behind slowly infiltrates the words making them kind of obscene.

Maybe "Mentally handicapped" will be an insult in some years and somebody will say it's cruel to call them that way and suggest "light headed" or whatever prudish or prissy new name they invent and we'll all have to call them that way or be considered non-PC.