which place has the better looking women and are less prejudice against black people?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, this beholder says Spain. It is hard to enjoy the sight of a good looking woman when you get caught in the cross fire of two warring drug lords in Columbia. It does not appear that, that situation will change anytime soon in Columbia, so go where you can enjoy. Viva Espana.

Beautiful women are everywhere; you can find just as many in Spain as you will in Colombia.

I would take Desert Dweller's advice to skip Colombia right now, the same for Venezuela and Cuba, purely for political reasons.

p.s. Colombians,sorry for misspelling Colombia!

There are many Colombian women in Spain, but there aren't Spanish women in Colombia. Why don't get the 2*1 bargain?

And who are better looking? ...as Desert Dweller said "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and I am a beholder too... just as Desert Dweller.

Don Dela Vega, in most of Latin America (or all of it - yes, that's a generalization) the whiter your skin the higher you sit on the social-status-scale and Colombia is not different, I'm sure. Blacks are at or near the bottom along with indigenous people. Blacks may even be lower since they came later. I'm not sure about this point about which is lower. But if you look at all your business owners, bankers, businessmen, politicians, movie/TV stars, and people in power you'll see that nearly all of them are white white - those with the strongest/purest Spain-based genetic traits. Is that a racist statement? Not really since it's not me who made the hierarchy this way, I'm just stating my observation. Is the way it is racist? Sure it is. When you have inequality you have racial inequalities and, as far as I'm aware, there are racial inequalities on every continent on the planet.

Blacks/Africans came to Spain MUCH later than they did to Colombia so is Spain LESS prejudice against black people than Colombians? I really don't know. I can only guess. But Spaniards are definitely less accustomed to having Africans in their environment than are Colombians.

Now, with regards to your "which has more attractive women", well, that's a toss-up, really. The only two Colombian women I've known were BOTH VERY attractive, both very white, one was blonde and the other a brunette, both thin, and very conscious about their appearance, makeup, hair, status. One I met in the USA and the other I met while on a tour in Perú. Keep in mind that those Colombians who can afford to travel belong to the upper classes and it's these upper classes which can afford to dress up, buy makeup, pay for cosmetic surgery, etcetera.

I've always said that, in general, Spanish women are attractive and they too are conscious of their appearance but in a different way. You'll find a LONG thread by an African American women (member name: Sheba) who was about to visit Spain. Her topic was called " Black in Spain ". I think you'll find it especially enlightening. I think there are a few other topics from/about black men visiting Spain and if the Spanish women liked or disliked them in general.

If money is a factor, I'd imagine that Colombia would be MUCH MUCH cheaper to spend time than in Spain. And from Colombia you can travel throughout Latin America inexpensively too. It's SO beautiful there and the people are so wonderful, open, just, and helpful.

Saludos, MadridMan

(By the Way, itis Colombia, not Columbia)

I`ve lived in colombia and now am living in Spain for a while. first of all the dangers of druglords in colombia has diminished considerably. It is not as dangerous as people make it out to be (ever hear of ETA?) In another post I wrote that I feel a lot unsafer living here in Barcelona, than I did while in colombia. I`ve seen more muggings and fights in the streets here than I ever did there. It is a dangerous place if you don`t know your way around, but not like the news makes out (You might be interested to know that a lot of ex-gi`s from the US cause a lot of the trouble down there while working for "security companies").

As far as women are concerned, a lot of differences. I tend to find colombians a lot more attractive. I have been around many Spaniards who tend to be a bit stinky, as well as having bad breath and brown teeth. I didnot experience this in colombia. Women down there are very aware of themselves and always try to make agood impression, not that it always works. One thing to consider is that most people in Colombia don`t smoke and if they do they aren`t fiends about it, one after the other. This helps with the smell/brown teeth problem. Most night life in colombia isn`t sitting down drinking in a smoke-filled bar. It`s dancing.
I`ve also found colombians to be a LOT more friendlier than Spaniards. Most foreigners that I know of here tell me that the local people ignore them when talked to. Colombians love to talk to people from different places.
For these reasons and like MadrdMan said about it being way cheaper, I`d go to colombia. If you need advice on where, etc... just ask.

oops forgot about hte black people thing. There is a lot of rascism in Colombia, but it doesn`t seem as in-your-face as the states. It`s more classist than rascist. If your black but from a different country (I think your from England?) then it is not an issue. You might feel a little on display, but don`t worry about it. What part of colombia are you going to? I suggest Santa Marta (El Rodadero to be specific)

Hi! Don Dela Vega: You sound interested in knowing where, either Spain or Colombia, you will be more popular or accepted among girls. Sorry I can’t answer that. But will take this opportunity to let you know that as an foreigner you will be seen different and out of comparison with the local black people. If you need some information about the situation of black people from Colombia, here you have my comments:

In Latin-America it is a common for the people to think that they are not racist just because they don't hate black people. So the concept of racism in Latin-America is different than that of the U.S., basically because the history of black people in the U.S. and South-America is different.

So in the U.S., most people are politically correct about their racial comments, at least in public. While in Latin-America you still hear people making jokes and comments about black people. This might be offensive to any African-American from the U.S., but in Latin-America it is considered simply a joke, that even many black people laugh about. Is it correct? Probably not, but the truth is that most people in Latin-America do not consider themselves racist.

Even though you don’t find racism in the way it is/was found in the U.S., the results of racism are the same. Look at the following numbers:

26% of the population of Colombia is black, but
No general in the Colombian Army is black
No bishop of the Catholic Church in Colombia is black
No member of the presidential cabinet is black
80% of black Colombians live in extreme poverty
The per capita income of the black population is 500 dollars per year
Half of the black population is analphabet
Only 2% of black people make it to College
74% of the black population receives less than the minimum legal salary in Colombia.

(Source http://www.theamericas.org/colombia_racism.htm, 2001)

I also should point out that most Colombian people I’ve met (and believe me they are good people) are happy to talk about their “pedigree” and social-economic status in Colombia. I found this really distasteful, but that’s the way it is. And like any other Latin-American country, most rich people from Colombia, if not white, have some European features.

Nonetheless, in my eyes in Latin-America there’s more classism than racism going on.

BTW, I agree with all of MM’s comments.

I agree with jabch. A lot of people I talked to in colombia talk about their class/pedigree. Even quite dark people will try to tell you how they are not 100% black. I even had one aquaintance tell me he wanted to have a baby by a white woman so he could "Improve his race". Not the brightest guy I knew there, actually he was wanted for selling properties that didn`t even belong to him (someone like this shouldn`t reproduce), as well as othre things. colombia is a greatplace to meet women, but be careful. More than once I was invited to have a baaby with someone I barely knew, and I had to insist a lot of times on using a condom.

Ok, How do people from spain look at people from colombia? if i havent already done this i would like to thank madridman and everyone for their help so far... do the spaniard get along with colombians?

I guess i dont have much to worry about since i am what they call "gringo" and i am not in the same class as a black colombian right?

i am probably what they would call a afro-european if such a thing exist..

Hey Emilio: I am glad you saw Richie's comments about Spanish girls with some sense of humor. When I saw his post I wasn't sure that was a proper thing to say. But honestly after reading all of his comments I feel he is just a free, honest, well intentioned person. Ok. Adios!

Emilio!

quote Madridman,

"Blacks/Africans came to Spain MUCH later than they did to Colombia..."

Not true. If the Romans had black slaves, Spain too had black people.

The following is taken from The article '(Lack of) Visual Regresentation of Black Slaves in Spanish Golden Age Painting' by C.Fracchia 'Journal of Iberian and Latin American Studies', Vol. 10, No.1, June 2004.

'Slavery of black and white people was obviously not a new phenomenon in Spain. It was introduced by the Carthaginians and it was developed by the Romans.....It is interesting that from 1501 the Spanish Crown allowed only Christian black people to go to the New World as slaves, although there is documentary evidence that this restriction was not observed.'

The article also mentions that Sevilla from the 15th century was one of the most important markets for the slave trade in Western Europe and that it had 30,000 slaves, a quarter of sevilla's population, 'black and white, Muslim and Christian...also a high proportion in Madrid.'

In those times Sevilla was very cosmopolitan as a result. Slaves brought there were of all colours and creeds, and had a big part in the success of the Spanish empire.

___________________

Predjudiced?, depends on which way you look at it. Another way could be that black women are seen as precious. In Ecuador for example they are seen as beautiful, men go crazy for them and women get jelous. On the coastal regions such as Guayaquil, Salinas, wow, I as a female could not take my eyes of them. Smooth perfect skin and green/ blue/claro eyes and perfect bodies. Oh and they are by far the best dancers. I heard the same for Colombia and Cuba.

I think times are changing in the politics of Latin America. There are now indigenous people part of governments now and from my experience I didn't feel racial tension between blacks through to whites when i was in South America but equality, things are getting better. They do use the term 'negro/negra' to refer to a black person, but it's not seen as racist, the whites are blancos, and browns are morenos. In my case, a morena, because I looooveeee the sun. my nick name is 'negrita/black girl', and it is said and meant with love.

At the end of the day beauty is beauty no matter the colour, we can't help but look. And there are beautiful people everywhere.

don de la vega,
I cna``t exacltly say how all spaniards look at colombians, but my wife (colombian) and I (gringo, as you say) experiences here in barcelona have been less than pleasant witht he locals.
Most times when I speak to a Catalan I get a look of "what the hell do you want" or they just ignore me completely. Our daughter`s doctor refused to speak to me in Spanish and insisted on speaking Catalan, even though I told her I didn`t understand (you think the health of a sick two-year old would make her help out a little, huh?) I speak fluent Spanish, its not like Idon`t. In fact that`s all I speak outside of my apartment.
My wife`s experience, as well as the other foreign students in her master class is quite the same. While doing work-study, most people ignore her and give one word answers to her questions. She even compliments people, told one girl "I like what you did with your hair", the girl could`ve cared less. But when any other catalan shows up its smiles, kisses, blah, blah,blah.
They even make fun of hw we speak. The locals say "finance" in class, my wife says "financiacion". They tell her, get this, that that isn`t spanish, that the word is "finance"! She has this problemwith many of the terms that don`t seem to have been converted into spanish here. i thought that there were a lot of english terms used in south america, but I find it worst here.
We`re trying to keep positive, but so far Spain is a letdown.

Richie: I can't believe the attitude of the people is that bad in Barcelona. However, do you think this is something exclusive to Barcelona or that extends to most places in Spain? Isn’t Spanish also official in Barcelona? In countries like Canada they have laws that oblige people providing a service to give you the information you need in one of the official languages.

Now I remember about a couple from Barcelona that was studying English here in the U.S., they were always speaking in Catalan and never wanted to talk to anyone from Latin-America or not white. I thought they were just close-minded people, but this might be the general attitude/culture in Barcelona.

Don Dela Vega: One of my friends (Mexican) had to go live in Colombia for a couple of years. Her dad worked for a big company in Mexico and got transferred to Colombia. She said that she had a blast, she mentioned that the people is really friendly, love dancing, partying, and are more open minded than in other Latin-American countries.

For example, she mentioned that motels (place where young people still living with their parents have sex) get so crowded over the weekends that you can see a line of cars waiting for their chance to get a room. In the meanwhile these people waiting outside the motel keep drinking and talking to people in other cars in a very natural way. Can you believe this? Sounds like a good place for a single guy. BTW my friend's mom wanted to go back to Mexico ASAP because her husband was drooling all the time while seeing the pretty women down there.

Richie,

As a Madrileño, I am not fond of Barcelona or the catalans...but your article expresses profound ignorance...

the Spanish your wife speaks is probably Colombian Spanish (and of course, it is teeming with "non-existent" words.)

financiación.

1. f. Acción y efecto de financiar.

source: Diccionario de la Real Academia Española.

What she probably wants to say is "finanzas"...look it up and tell me if that is what you meant. Since you are North American, your command of Spanish is probably not 100%...just as my command of ALL English is not 100% accurate even though I am very good with languages, among other noticeable talents.

Barcelona, like Madrid, suffers from illegal immigration and illegal immigrants who do nothing but steal and terrorise tourists and locals.

Aside from that, why is it such a problem for you that nobody speaks to your wife or to you? Your wife may be a very "nice" person...but I certainly do not like it when complete STRANGERS come up to me and try starting a conversation. Have you not realised by now that Barcelona is a CITY? Because let me tell you, I lived in London and New York...try walking up to a person and "complimenting" their child...you will be ignored.

Stop hating the Spaniards...and I will now use an American phrase, but adapted: Spain, love it or leave it.

Oh and a short question:

are you and your wife in Spain legally? If so, do you pay taxes?

EDIT:

I meant to say: does your wife have papers of residency or is she here on an illegal scam?

As for you, unless you own a corporation, I am assuming that you are illegal because I only one North American with permanent residency status. And that is because his mother is from here.

Well actually Capitalino, it is quite normal in London and the UK to go up to a parent and compliment their baby. I do it, others do it, and the same happened when my younger brother was a baby. People even offer help to a mother or father with their child, handing out Kleenex or sweets/crisps/drinks, offering to help up the stairs or escalators.
I don't think any city is any different.

btw, nothing can come of slagging other cities or countries. It offends, people get hurt become defensive and lash out.
But then what good can come out of a theme such as Spain v Colombia, or to be more precise:advice on meat markets and easy women please. Honestly.

i got a totally different vibe when i spoke to spainish people here in london. they were friendly to me. May be it is because i am european. where are u and your wife from. one thing you have to remember is here in european people are laid back and silence is golden. if you try to hard to be friend people see right through this and they isolate you. It may be also that because you speak castilan that they hate that. The franco era has made people form barcellona hateful of people from madrid. even the football teams real madrid and barcelona have a big history of hatred. but i heard colombians werent friendly to black people especially the ones from in medellin.

Yes sir, you are correct and I should have explained it better: I meant to say that in most big cities, talking to strangers is not normal in most cases.

One of the "complaints" I get from clients who are foreign here in Madrid is that nobody offers to help a mother or father with their child, etc...or with anything. Ex: I have a client who tells me that nobody will hold doors for you (my client is North American)...so every city has its personality.

As to meat markets...you don't have to travel to Colombia for one...we have one right in the centre of Madrid with Colombian women.

And yes, discussing "country x versus y" is unproductive...but certainly entertaining...as the superiority of one over the other is self'evident.

Probably Richie meant "finance" like in "finances públiques," public finances in Catalan.

The issue is probably a little bit cultural too. Latinamerican people tend to be more friendly than Americans for example. When I finished my master's degree here in the U.S. I realized that I seated in a classroom for one year next to the same person and never got to know her. However, I did not feel offended because of that.

Nonetheless, I would also be very frustrated if a doctor doesn't talk to me in Spanish, when I know he/she speaks Spanish and I don't speak the other language.

Capitoliano,
first of all, how is reporting events that have happened to me ignorant? saying i hate catalans for no reason would be, but i didn`t say that,I said that i had some unpleasant experiences here.

you were right about finanzas,but you overlooked something very ignorant about my wife`s fellow classmates (the spaniards). THEY USE ENGLISH WORDS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND TELL HER THAT IS CORRECT SPANISH, do you get it yet? When she says "finanzas" they say "no, finance". Now tell me, where is the ignorance? This also happens to be one example of many. These students (relax, I`m not saying all spaniards, that would be ignorant) don`t even know their own language

"the Spanish your wife speaks is probably Colombian Spanish (and of course, it is teeming with "non-existent" words.)" -This sounds like an ignorant and stuck up spaniard to me.

" I am very good with languages, among other noticeable talents. " Wow, tooting your own horn quite nicely.

"Barcelona, like Madrid, suffers from illegal immigration and illegal immigrants who do nothing but steal and terrorise tourists and locals. " Wow! ignorance once again, and no, there`s no illegal SPANIARDS living in other countries doing things illegal, no!

Try reading my post once again and you will see that my wife was in work-study, which means she has been working with this girl for a while, also saying " ..what you have done with your hair", apparently my wife saw her hair previously so she wasn`t a stranger. By the way, what`s wrong with talking to strangers?

"Have you not realised by now that Barcelona is a CITY?" -Maybe you have heard of the outback town I grew up in called NEW YORK CITY.

"are you and your wife in Spain legally? If so, do you pay taxes? " Yes to legal and since I cannot work here legally, I have passed on TO A CATALAN a two-hundred thousand dollar filming contract from another group of foreigners. It won`t balance the budget but I think I`m contributing here in Spain, also my landlord is Catalan so he`s making out on me being here. To repeat: no, there`s no illegal SPANIARDS living in other countries doing things illegal, no!

"Stop hating the Spaniards...and I will now use an American phrase, but adapted: Spain, love it or leave it." - Never said I did, moron, because I don`t and quite frankly I think that phrase of loving or leaving it has quite ignorant roots. funny how Spain doesn`t see eye-to-eye with the US about a lot, rightly so I agree, and now here`s a spaniard using this phrase!

Capitalino:

Your first comment is very insulting and the second one really arrogant, why are you so upset?

«Capitoliano,»

capITAlino...I know, it is so late at night that you overlooked a letter.

«first of all, how is reporting events that have happened to me ignorant? saying i hate catalans for no reason would be, but i didn`t say that,I said that i had some unpleasant experiences here.»

I did not say reporting events is ignorant...the implication was: some reporters are ignorant. See the difference?

«you were right about finanzas,but you overlooked something very ignorant about my wife`s fellow classmates (the spaniards). THEY USE ENGLISH WORDS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND TELL HER THAT IS CORRECT SPANISH, do you get it yet? When she says "finanzas" they say "no, finance".»

Maybe they are making an effort to learn English...that's certainly a new development here in Spain. And no, you're not explaining yourself correctly.

«Now tell me, where is the ignorance?»

I'm not sure if ignorance hides in a specific place...I haven't met her yet...

«This also happens to be one example of many. These students (relax, I`m not saying all spaniards, that would be ignorant) don`t even know their own language.»

My guess is that we know our languages more than Americans know theirs.

«"the Spanish your wife speaks is probably Colombian Spanish (and of course, it is teeming with "non-existent" words.)" -This sounds like an ignorant and stuck up spaniard to me.»

Well if you think that the REAL ACADEMIA is ignorant and stuck up for not having Latin American spanish words...then what can I do about that? Here we all hold our own secrets and opinions...

«" I am very good with languages, among other noticeable talents. " Wow, tooting your own horn quite nicely.»

Amazing all the things I can do...tooting my own horn is one of those. (I had to look up "tooting your own horn" but now I understand)...I am perversely proud of my abilities.

«"Barcelona, like Madrid, suffers from illegal immigration and illegal immigrants who do nothing but steal and terrorise tourists and locals. " Wow! ignorance once again, and no, there`s no illegal SPANIARDS living in other countries doing things illegal, no!»

When you can name me more than 10 delinquent Spaniards in other countries, come back and talk to me. On the other hand, I can go to the police station and find hundreds of Colombian criminals who live here.

«Try reading my post once again and you will see that my wife was in work-study, which means she has been working with this girl for a while, also saying " ..what you have done with your hair", apparently my wife saw her hair previously so she wasn`t a stranger. By the way, what`s wrong with talking to strangers?»

Nothing wrong with talking to strangers...but don't expect everyone to smile.

«"Have you not realised by now that Barcelona is a CITY?" -Maybe you have heard of the outback town I grew up in called NEW YORK CITY.»

Indeed I have...and I lived in your city...and believe me, the people are the nastiest I have ever seen or met. It is outrageous that you speak of rudeness when the people of New York do not know the meaning of hospitality or manners.

«"are you and your wife in Spain legally? If so, do you pay taxes? " Yes to legal and since I cannot work here legally, I have passed on TO A CATALAN a two-hundred thousand dollar filming contract from another group of foreigners. It won`t balance the budget but I think I`m contributing here in Spain, also my landlord is Catalan so he`s making out on me being here. To repeat: no, there`s no illegal SPANIARDS living in other countries doing things illegal, no!»

When you can name those Spaniards, I will be more than happy to engage with you in a debate. And the question remains unanswered: is your wife here with papers? What do you mean by "work study?" I know you were probably here without papers, as I edited in my comment.

«Stop hating the Spaniards...and I will now use an American phrase, but adapted: Spain, love it or leave it." - Never said I did, moron, because I don`t and quite frankly I think that phrase of loving or leaving it has quite ignorant roots. funny how Spain doesn`t see eye-to-eye with the US about a lot, rightly so I agree, and now here`s a spaniard using this phrase!»

Spain and Spanish people are two different concepts...there are always "two spains"...and if you don't despise your life here, maybe you should stop protesting on a forum about Colombia versus Spain...like I said, you are free to leave the country.

And yes, Madrid is much better than Barcelona...we are everything and more.

JABCH:

On the contrary, I am very happy that I am so honest.

It's useless, give up. He's not upset, just ignore his comments. Trust me, it's better that way.

yes sir, we will now all obey you...oh master of diplomacy and tolerance!

¡en el nombre de jesús!

Capitalino:

What about ETA people the police is looking for. Aren't they Spaniards, considered delinquents, more than 10, and mostly living abroad?

I know that's a different issue, but generally, if you are not from Spain or France you don't understand this movement really well and just consider these guys plain Spanish criminals.

well, now I will tell you that I am referring to criminals...not political struggles...I despise the ETA and their beliefs...but it is politics...not criminals exported from other countries to rob ordinary citizens.

C'mon! That's a nice way to put it. In fact you can argue that exporting criminals to other countries that get involved in smuggling of arms and killing regular people is worst than what you say Colombians do.

Ok. I think we should stop this subject soon, because this is not going to help Don Dela Vega get laid either in Spain or Colombia...sorry miche...just kidding!

The ETA members do not kill people in other countries...they kill people in Spain for political reasons. Let us not mix terrorism with common delinquency. It is not the same...and yes, I always put things in a nice way...that's part of being a native of Madrid.

You didn't sound that nice when talking about Colombian women in Madrid. But I assume that since you are also very honest that was the only way to say it.

Sounding nice is not important...being honest and forthright is what is truly necessary. Notice I did not say they should be killed or hurt...I simply say that they exist.

It's very similar to the concept one has with Africans...are they any less human beings? No...but that doesn't mean one has to pretend to ignore they are African...I don't forget the fact that they are...just as I don't forget that I am a Spaniard...it's interesting to be honest.

It is very hard not to see prejudice, instead of honesty, in your comments. Since I am involved in this message board I've realized that there's a big discontent among Spaniards regarding immigrants. Probably in one or two decades this will change. However, I wonder if this uproar among Spaniards due to immigration issues is just that or is also racism. What about being born in Spain to black parents. Do you consider these people Spaniards and entitled to good jobs and social services?

I lived in barcelona for a month. I really didn't have a problem. Europe is like the USA. At one restaurant a guy said to me and my friends in spain we say please and thank you(maremagnum).He was a little mad.At anonther restaurant on avenida diagonal. The waiter went out of his way. He fist asked me if I would rather be spoken to in english, catalan or castellano.You meet good people and bad people everywhere. The most important thing is not to let bad people spoil your trip. Here is a funny story. I had a roomate(madrid) who lived in barcelona for a while. He went into a store to buy a loaf of bread.He went to purchase the bread and he spoke to the woman at the counter in spanish. She did not respond because she only wanted to speak in catalan. He wanted to know the price but she still would not speak spanish. He took the loaf of bread and proceeded to walk out of the store without paying. when he was at the the door she spoke to him in spanish and told him the price.Don I would suggest visiting a few places.I lived in sevilla and I personally enjoyed the warmth of the people there. I am Black and I also am american. I have feeling that I might have been treated a little better because of the american part.In sevilla there are many africans who are not legal. During the day you do not see too many blacks, But at night everyone comes out at the hip hop clubs. I would say sevilla is a good place to hook up.The girls are beautiful and friendly. They are generally respectful. If they like you they will come up to you.I went to bars and women would buy me drinks, even bartenders.Unheard of in the USA.The weather is nice, the food is good,the women are good. The environment is nice.In general I have found that most europeans don't have a problem if you are starting a company studying, teaching, on vacation. But if you are going there to work. Then it becomes a problem, because you are taking away jobs from locals.I heard that alot. They view the USA as the immigration country. They will say our system supports immigration. Whereas europe is a social system and it can only accomodate a certain number of people.Yet here in America there are more and more europeans living here. Everytime I turn the tv it is the story of a brit working on wall street or a brit in the media (tina Brown). My roomate and I now joke that the europeans are taking our jobs in america.

In answer to your question...I would NOT consider that person a Spaniard...even if this government gives away the papers and nationality...I believe in the concept of jus sanguinis...much like it is the case of Switzerland. That person "born in Spain to black parents" is still an immigrant...not in the "technical definition" sense...i.e. he was born here and may have no accent, but I will certainly NEVER ever consider that person to be part of our true history or culture...never. If that sounds racist, well, do not expect any apologies from me because I am not the sort of person who apologises for my views.

And no, we will NOT change in two decades...if you ask even younger people...i.e. teens...there seems to be an even split (50/50) of opinions...and the future of Spain is dark indeed if more immigrants continue to come in.

And if you look at northern european countries, even second generation immigrants BORN in those countries are NOT accepted by society...cases like Holland, Denmark, Sweden...and in France, even third generation Muslim born french are not generally accepted by the natives.

People in Spain who do not descend from Spaniards will always be alien.

Does that mean they should be treated like scum? No...absolutely not...but if I were in charge of immigration, not a single one of those persons would receive so much social assistance...they have everything they need and immigration is not a "drama"...not a single immigrant here in Spain came in the LEGAL way...and even if it is a minor infraction, they are still delinquents.

And one last comment: it is already a fact in Britain that Black students are failing in school. We do not have this problem yet but all children of immigrant parents born in Spain are a future problem...on that hopefully will be tackled before I get into politics.

Saludos y arriba españa

Capitalino:

Thanks for sharing your views. It would be interesting to see how the Spanish government and people react to the challenges that immigration presents before them.

Let's all calm down, okay? Thanks.

Saludos, MadirdMan

The Real Academia de espanol is great because it does recognise that Spanish spoken in this world is one language. Yes there are variations, just as there are within Spain's regions and thats the beauty isn't it, that one can find Latin American words/usage and the Iberian peninsular in one. Aren't all dictionaries like that? Spanish ones I mean.
Isn't there a section stating something like this in the dictionary itself, the real academia i mean, about the countries which participate.

I wanted to buy the TWO volume hardback Real Academia dictionary but settled for the Salamanca university paperback edition instead. It's fine, it serves it's purpose especially since i'm reading Latin AMerican fiction for the moment.

Capitalino... I can't disagree more with you.... Inmigration brings problems, of course it does. Having illegal people with no access to a decent job makes criminal rate rise, that's for sure. But inmigration also brings wealth, and soon many of the children of those inmigrants will study and become an active part of our work force. Plus, if it weren't for those inmigrants our country would soon become a country full of old people with no income but their pension...

You say you won't consider spanish someone born from two inmigrants... Aren't we all inmigrants?? When did our families come to our homeland?? Aren't we spaniards a mix of many different people?? How can any of us say that we have no african blood, or viking, or visigothic, or roman, or.... Maybe your family came to Spain just 500 years ago... Should I consider you an alien???? Come on...

«But inmigration also brings wealth, and soon many of the children of those inmigrants will study and become an active part of our work force.»

hahahaha how optimistic of you! Have you travelled to France recently or Germany and do you not see they are not working in "decent jobs"?

«Plus, if it weren't for those inmigrants our country would soon become a country full of old people with no income but their pension...»

Actually, you are just repeating media propaganda. According to the economic experts, I can provide all the sources and study, immigrants will not save our pensions and no, they are not having MANY more children than Spaniards.

«Aren't we all inmigrants??»

I am certainly not an immigrant...maybe you are...but I am not. I have lived in other countries BUT NEVER permanently.

«When did our families come to our homeland?? Aren't we spaniards a mix of many different people?? How can any of us say that we have no african blood, or viking, or visigothic, or roman, or.... Maybe your family came to Spain just 500 years ago... Should I consider you an alien???? Come on... »

Do you consider this a serious dialogue on such an important issue? Do you really think that you cannot distinguish between a foreigner and a Spaniard? Perhaps you should study more and put away your NGO propaganda...or is it PSOE?

And by the way, none of this is personal...believe me...but PLEASE let me be entitled to my criteria and opinions. If you ask MOST Spaniards, they will agree with me...do me the favour and try it...on the streets, not here where people shield behind a computer.

and jbch...you are always welcome to ask me anything and I will, as usual, be honest.

Can't play nice without insulting each other? What a shame. Topic Closed.