Sounding nice is not important...being honest and forthright is what is truly necessary. Notice I did not say they should be killed or hurt...I simply say that they exist.

It's very similar to the concept one has with Africans...are they any less human beings? No...but that doesn't mean one has to pretend to ignore they are African...I don't forget the fact that they are...just as I don't forget that I am a Spaniard...it's interesting to be honest.

It is very hard not to see prejudice, instead of honesty, in your comments. Since I am involved in this message board I've realized that there's a big discontent among Spaniards regarding immigrants. Probably in one or two decades this will change. However, I wonder if this uproar among Spaniards due to immigration issues is just that or is also racism. What about being born in Spain to black parents. Do you consider these people Spaniards and entitled to good jobs and social services?

I lived in barcelona for a month. I really didn't have a problem. Europe is like the USA. At one restaurant a guy said to me and my friends in spain we say please and thank you(maremagnum).He was a little mad.At anonther restaurant on avenida diagonal. The waiter went out of his way. He fist asked me if I would rather be spoken to in english, catalan or castellano.You meet good people and bad people everywhere. The most important thing is not to let bad people spoil your trip. Here is a funny story. I had a roomate(madrid) who lived in barcelona for a while. He went into a store to buy a loaf of bread.He went to purchase the bread and he spoke to the woman at the counter in spanish. She did not respond because she only wanted to speak in catalan. He wanted to know the price but she still would not speak spanish. He took the loaf of bread and proceeded to walk out of the store without paying. when he was at the the door she spoke to him in spanish and told him the price.Don I would suggest visiting a few places.I lived in sevilla and I personally enjoyed the warmth of the people there. I am Black and I also am american. I have feeling that I might have been treated a little better because of the american part.In sevilla there are many africans who are not legal. During the day you do not see too many blacks, But at night everyone comes out at the hip hop clubs. I would say sevilla is a good place to hook up.The girls are beautiful and friendly. They are generally respectful. If they like you they will come up to you.I went to bars and women would buy me drinks, even bartenders.Unheard of in the USA.The weather is nice, the food is good,the women are good. The environment is nice.In general I have found that most europeans don't have a problem if you are starting a company studying, teaching, on vacation. But if you are going there to work. Then it becomes a problem, because you are taking away jobs from locals.I heard that alot. They view the USA as the immigration country. They will say our system supports immigration. Whereas europe is a social system and it can only accomodate a certain number of people.Yet here in America there are more and more europeans living here. Everytime I turn the tv it is the story of a brit working on wall street or a brit in the media (tina Brown). My roomate and I now joke that the europeans are taking our jobs in america.

In answer to your question...I would NOT consider that person a Spaniard...even if this government gives away the papers and nationality...I believe in the concept of jus sanguinis...much like it is the case of Switzerland. That person "born in Spain to black parents" is still an immigrant...not in the "technical definition" sense...i.e. he was born here and may have no accent, but I will certainly NEVER ever consider that person to be part of our true history or culture...never. If that sounds racist, well, do not expect any apologies from me because I am not the sort of person who apologises for my views.

And no, we will NOT change in two decades...if you ask even younger people...i.e. teens...there seems to be an even split (50/50) of opinions...and the future of Spain is dark indeed if more immigrants continue to come in.

And if you look at northern european countries, even second generation immigrants BORN in those countries are NOT accepted by society...cases like Holland, Denmark, Sweden...and in France, even third generation Muslim born french are not generally accepted by the natives.

People in Spain who do not descend from Spaniards will always be alien.

Does that mean they should be treated like scum? No...absolutely not...but if I were in charge of immigration, not a single one of those persons would receive so much social assistance...they have everything they need and immigration is not a "drama"...not a single immigrant here in Spain came in the LEGAL way...and even if it is a minor infraction, they are still delinquents.

And one last comment: it is already a fact in Britain that Black students are failing in school. We do not have this problem yet but all children of immigrant parents born in Spain are a future problem...on that hopefully will be tackled before I get into politics.

Saludos y arriba españa

Capitalino:

Thanks for sharing your views. It would be interesting to see how the Spanish government and people react to the challenges that immigration presents before them.

Let's all calm down, okay? Thanks.

Saludos, MadirdMan

The Real Academia de espanol is great because it does recognise that Spanish spoken in this world is one language. Yes there are variations, just as there are within Spain's regions and thats the beauty isn't it, that one can find Latin American words/usage and the Iberian peninsular in one. Aren't all dictionaries like that? Spanish ones I mean.
Isn't there a section stating something like this in the dictionary itself, the real academia i mean, about the countries which participate.

I wanted to buy the TWO volume hardback Real Academia dictionary but settled for the Salamanca university paperback edition instead. It's fine, it serves it's purpose especially since i'm reading Latin AMerican fiction for the moment.

Capitalino... I can't disagree more with you.... Inmigration brings problems, of course it does. Having illegal people with no access to a decent job makes criminal rate rise, that's for sure. But inmigration also brings wealth, and soon many of the children of those inmigrants will study and become an active part of our work force. Plus, if it weren't for those inmigrants our country would soon become a country full of old people with no income but their pension...

You say you won't consider spanish someone born from two inmigrants... Aren't we all inmigrants?? When did our families come to our homeland?? Aren't we spaniards a mix of many different people?? How can any of us say that we have no african blood, or viking, or visigothic, or roman, or.... Maybe your family came to Spain just 500 years ago... Should I consider you an alien???? Come on...

«But inmigration also brings wealth, and soon many of the children of those inmigrants will study and become an active part of our work force.»

hahahaha how optimistic of you! Have you travelled to France recently or Germany and do you not see they are not working in "decent jobs"?

«Plus, if it weren't for those inmigrants our country would soon become a country full of old people with no income but their pension...»

Actually, you are just repeating media propaganda. According to the economic experts, I can provide all the sources and study, immigrants will not save our pensions and no, they are not having MANY more children than Spaniards.

«Aren't we all inmigrants??»

I am certainly not an immigrant...maybe you are...but I am not. I have lived in other countries BUT NEVER permanently.

«When did our families come to our homeland?? Aren't we spaniards a mix of many different people?? How can any of us say that we have no african blood, or viking, or visigothic, or roman, or.... Maybe your family came to Spain just 500 years ago... Should I consider you an alien???? Come on... »

Do you consider this a serious dialogue on such an important issue? Do you really think that you cannot distinguish between a foreigner and a Spaniard? Perhaps you should study more and put away your NGO propaganda...or is it PSOE?

And by the way, none of this is personal...believe me...but PLEASE let me be entitled to my criteria and opinions. If you ask MOST Spaniards, they will agree with me...do me the favour and try it...on the streets, not here where people shield behind a computer.

and jbch...you are always welcome to ask me anything and I will, as usual, be honest.

Can't play nice without insulting each other? What a shame. Topic Closed.