Just a thing:

The bask parliament is not a sovereign parliament. It's a regional parliament without the full range of competencies that a national sovereign parliament has. The Spain's Parliament, as the USA Parliament or the France Parliament, is a national sovereign chamber. The bask Parliament is a regional chamber as the bask government is a regional government. There are countless regional chambers and regional governments in many countries of the world. None of them are completely sovereign chambers, and I think the world will become a chaos if every regional chamber and every regional government attempt to jump over the respective nation law.

Spanish Constitution of 1978 was voted in referendum by the whole Spain population, not only bask population. The secession of the bask region implicates a change of the spanish Constitution, so it sholudn't be voted only by bask people in a referendum without the agreement of the Spain's Parliament. The "Plan Ibarretxe" includes a only-bask referendum about a constitutional question. Such referendum cannot nullify a previous referendum voted by the whole nation represented in the Spain Parliament and the Spain's Constitution.

That's true. In fact, not only by the other parties: by most journalists too. They think that it's a law created "ad personae", and that's true too.

Well..a half-true means a half-lie. That reform could be declared inconstitutional, maybe. OK. But the reform will not "prosecute those who act against the will of the central Government". The reform will prosecute those who convoke a referendum on national matters (such the Constitution) without the agreement of the nation's chamber.

Let me tell you something: I disagree with that Aznar government reform, mostly because the way it has been proposed...in a hurry. But is not less true that the Ibarretxe proposals have not been presented in a more adequate way.


That probably was true for Atutxa un the past, when he commanded the bask police. Now tell me, how many PNV party members have been attacked by ETA in the recent years? how many PNV members are pointed as well-known objectives of the terrorist group? is Atutxa currently an ETA objective? Are the PNV memeber's homes burned? are the PNV bureaus burned and attacked? are the small town's city hall PNV members killed? are the bask nationalist journalists killed or menaced?

Batasuna, the bask party which has been prosecuted and prohibited by the judge Garzón from the National Audience court, has a clear relationship with ETA: some of the main party's members are or were members of ETA. Once this relationship was established by judge investigations (long time after it was well known by everybody in Spain), the party was accused of colaboration with terrorists and its activities in both bask and spanish chambers were prohibited.
This court measure have been difficulted by the current bask chamber chairman, Atutxa, who says that a judge cannot act over a sovereign chamber like the bask chamber. But, as I said before, bask chamber is not a sovereign chamber, and its members can't stand out of the judicial range of action.

The current Atutxa attitude as the bask chamber chairman is, I'm sorry to saying it, highly shameful. He rejects to accomplish the judge measures, he is begginning to expel from the chamber sessions anyone who talks against him or his government (he did it again just the last week, with a PSOE spokesman).

Remember: bask chamber is a regional chamber which, as any other of the seventeen Spain's regional chambers, is submitted to the spanish nation's law.

I didn't hear the galician, andalucian, or valencian regional chambers pretending to be sovereing Parliaments with no liability to accomplish the law as any other institution.

Just imagine the state of Texas suddenly wanting to act as a sovereign nation, unaccomplishing the USA laws and protecting a party which support the Al Qaeda terrorists... that's the way to make the world go on peacefully?

Quoting the above post, I think it pretty well sums up the complete legal & constitutional question ....

What was enacted by the entire voting population of Spain cannot be reversed or removed by a few for the interests of the few.

Any international lawyers out there?????

Of course, as always, some people depict ETA as wonderful young people trying to liberate an oppresed country, PNV as the party in possesion of truth about the matter, fighting by political and clean means against the evil and fascist Partido Popular, similar to nazis no more! However, the truth sometimes and somehow rises to the surface.

"I prefer a blak who speaks basque than a white who doesn't" (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman)

"...the gasoline kids..." (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman, speaking about urban ETA teams who used molotov cocktails against basque autonomous policemen and killed 5 of them)

"In this country [Basque Country], for 40 years there was a tremendous inmigration... Ok, they seeked jobs. But they diluted the evilness Franco did. If not for inmigration, we could have done a self-determination referendum and won it easily." (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman)

"We have a divided countrymen. A lot of foreign people [spaniards] has comed here. I don't think we have been bad with foreign people, and now it seems they want to take control of our country". (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman)

"It can't be conceived that outsiders become the owners of our home by election votes, thus losing our identity." (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman)

"We have a lot of inmigrants who came during Franco's regime. Thus, the same issue than in Germany is raised: Is german a turkish who has lived various decades in Germany? Does he want to be german? Not everybody who lives with us wants to be basque" (Javier Arzallus, PNV Chairman, in an interview with a Die Welt german newspaper)

"The people coming south from Alava are rats" (Mr. Caballero, PNV local leader, referring to spaniards)

"ETA is a ulcer which bleeds from time to time, but which won't kill us" (Javier Arzallus)

Of course all these pearls of elevated thinking doesn't matter at all. Also, it doesn't matter the Basque Country has the most developed autonomy (more than an american federal state, more than a german länder). It doesn't matter that the PNV Government is directly financing Batasuna (an ilegalized organization, recognized as a terrorist band part of ETA structure by European Union and USA) or that they don't comply with judges mandates. Finally, it doesn't matter that more than 800 human beings (children, journlaists, politicians, policemen, soldiers, judges, lawyers, councilmen, senators, businessmen and common people) have been killed by ETA (financed by its fellow ilegallized organizations as Seki, Segi, Egunkaria and Egin newspapers) or by Jarrai (the youngsters Batasuna organization). Never mind. Blame on the others! Sure it is responsability of those PP fascists (which didn't existed for half ETA's existence).

Well, thanks God PP hasn't follow the "the policial way is not the way to end with ETA" idea (whose author is Arzallus, PNV Chairman). At least we have now 2-5 assasinations instead of 35 a year.

Say what? It is a great big pleasure to be called a fascist by those who can't stand others opinions and ideas, and who think that assasination, coercion, blackmail, kidnapping, extorsion and menaces are valid means to reach any political goals. IT IS A HUGE PLEASURE

Fernando

End one hot topic and start another. hehehe... Debate on, but let's stay calm, okay? Thank you.

Felices Fiestas, MadridMan

PP are fascists. I agree with that. But as others have said, a half truth is also a half lie, and you must say that PNV is not less fascist, in fact is an ultra-catholic and ultra- right wing party, and it allways has been this way.
PNV's founder, Sabino Arana, was a racist that had a thinking that was clearly similar to the Nazi ideology.
At least, the PP fascists, heirs to the Franco regime, haven't an official racist thinking. (although the anti-inmigration laws go that way...)
So, it's a fascist vs fascist fight, and I hope none of them prevail. While this fight goes on, ETA and their upholders smile in the background, hoping to get the benefits of all this mess.

It seems nowadays in Spain everyone is a fascist... Even Batasuna, when it was a legal policital party, was called fascist (no matter they defined themselves as a marxist-leninist party). PNV are fascists, Batasuna are fascists, PP are fascists,... It seems there is not much to choose between...

Or perhaps, certain political parties can't accept that there are other political democratic groups which are as valid as theirs.

I have heard socialists and communists calling PP, PNV, CiU and Batasuna fascists. Of course nationalists acuse PP of being fascists, while PP says Batasuna are fascists.

You know what? The only fascists in Spain are the extreme-right parties, which obtain less than 15 thousand votes.

So please, call every party for what they are:

PP: Liberals
PSOE: Socialists
IU: Communists
CiU: Catalonian Nationalist Liberals
PNV: Basque Radical Nationalists
Batasuna: Terrorists
and so on

Fernando

Thanks for your responses -- it’s apparent that any mention of ETA stirs emotions. I didn’t mean for a political discussion to ensue, although it made for interesting and enlightening reading.

Off the subject, the labels Fernando used to describe the politics of Spain’s major political parties are interesting, especially the labels “liberal” and “socialist”. As I understand the platform(s) of Mr. Aznar’s party (right-of-center), we in the U.S. might label the PP “conservative” or “right wing”.

Here, “liberal” is generally be used for left-of-center groups. The Democrats have been so labeled since FDR’s administration (with the exception of the “Dixiecrats”). “Socialist” is used here to imply very-left-of-center and, in fact connotes “communist” (which in the U.S. remains a derogatory term). The term “socialist” is used freely to label left-of-center policies and political figures on the political talks shows with a more conservative slant.