I have lived in Spain, the UK and in Greece (where I am from), and all three countries are 'less European' in some way or another.

Everyone is 'less European' in some respect

D

hey everybody

yes thats true

BUT all these countries are part of europe and in the european union while "european" countries like turkey and albania are not.
any ways greece for example is one of the cradles of EUROPEAN society.

england is obviously european and spain too.

thats very wrong to say spain is not european.

the one who said that is just a typical american that does not know much about foreign country.

we as a country have that weak point.

Eu*ro*pe*an adj. Of, pertaining to, or derived from Europe. -Eu'ro*pe'an n.

I'd say that pretty much describes all of Europe as well as a large part of the United States and Canada too!

So, since Spain IS officially part of Europe they cannot, by definition, BE anything but European, particularly not LESS European. They, and Portugal, may be the NEWEST members of Europe though, historically speaking. Or maybe Greece is the newest member.

Good topic of discussion. Saludos, MadridMan

hey everybody

my pal MM

portugal and greece are certainly not the newest members of europe.

correction:

greece is the OLDEST member of europe.
iceland is the NEWEST member of europe.

fmiketheman, but I don't believe (no data to back up my assertions, though) that the countries around the Mediterranean were long ago considered "European" but now they are as they're members of the European Union. When I think of "Ancient Europe" I think, as probably many do, of England, France, Germany and these other historically "WHITE FACED" countries. No? (by the way, many of my Spanish friends are whiter than I am! )

Saludos, MadridMan

Hello,

Madridman:

Well, considering that Greece, Italy, and Spain had the oldest European cultures in Europe several millenium ago. Spain had Tartessos culture which is considered one of the oldest on Earth, it also had the one of the oldest remanainces of old culture in the "Cuevas de Altamira". Even more, it is supossed that the Kenewitt Man (the caucasian man discovered in America) was from Southwest France or Northeast Spain. Considering also that the people from the "Valle de Atapuerca" in Burgos are considered the oldest group of people living in Europe, I don´t know what MadridMan is refering when talking about "which countries long ago were considered "European"...

Did you also knew that in Southern Europe We had real civilizations in our lands while at the same time We called all the people above the Alps,ie Northeuropeans "Barbarians" because they, a part of not having an own culture, in fact, were barbarians, destroyed every culture they manage to find.

Did you also knew that Spain is the OLDEST CONSIDERED COUNTRY IN EUROPE as an unitary concept??. Iberia-Hispania-Spain are the different words for the same concept. Spain as a nowadays country comes from 1492 (I think it is one of the oldest in Europe also).Even in the Bible they talked about Hispania 2000 years ago. I doubt they talked about Norway or Great Britain in the Bible.

Being member of the European Union ten years before or later (SPain entered in 1986) means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in relation about what must be considered much European or not. (In fact all european countries are "european" per se).

When you think of "Ancient Europe" you should be thinking about Greece and Rome, not anything else. Well, at least you should do it if you want to look educate and minimally culturized.

About the WHITE FACED" countries, study a little bit more of ANTROPOLOGY and then if you want We can start to talk about it. Did you know that the Irish, Cornish, Welsh, Scotland come from the aboriginal populations of Gallaecia (Galicia-Spain)??. Did you know that the basques along with the Iberians and Irish are considered the first humans living in Europe, despite they are darker haired and darker eyed than people from Northern Europe. So they are the aboriginal europeans. So the "White faced" camed later. Did you know that there is no single SERIOUS ANTROPOLOGIST THAT can doubt about that all European countries are EQUALLY WHITE (pigmentation doesn´t mean much for antropologist. For them it is much important many other variables. They conclude that all European countries are EQUALLY WHITE, from norwegians to italians, from russians to Spaniards). Yes, Catherine Zeta Jones is a Northern European and is as dark as the average Spaniard. Is she a "WHITE FACED" to you?.

"No? (by the way, many of my Spanish friends are whiter than I am! )"

By the way I am whiter than 90% of Northamericans and I´m fully Spanish (I´m a blue-eyed and have redhair). I´m also whiter than 90% of Europeans, and I´m whiter than 70% of Scandinavians. I have been to Ireland and they ALWAYS thought I was one of them. But not, I´m fully Spanish with spanish surnames like Gonzalez. Curiosities that life brings......And no, don´t start saying that Antonio Banderas is representative of a Spaniard (I don´t even consider him white) because he probably belongs to that 1% top dark Spaniards, so he is not representative of this country. And yes, I´ve seen pictures of you and I´m much whiter than you, and you don´t even look like an stereotipical American for us, in fact many Spaniards are whiter than you (may be you are taller than them but not whiter than them). Just to put things in perspective...

By the way, check your own History. Spain, after England and France, played a MAJOR ROLE in the initial stages of the development of your country. More than half of what is now the US was a possesion of Spain (even Louisiana in that time was about 1/3 of the US and was Spanish, We controled the Missisipi river also, which was the most important commercial location in all America). We sold them to the French, after it, the sold it to England, so what is now the US have much to do with that part of your History were Spain played a MAJOR ROLE. Not only We discovered America, We also founded the first city in the US (St.Agustine), the first University in AMerica, the first Cathedral, ........

There is a lot to say but I simply don´t have the time now.

We could also start to talk about Giovanni Cabotto or John Cabot or the REAL "JOAN CABOT". Cabot is a catalan surname, there are thousands of Spaniards that have a Cabot surname. Why did the English changed a supossed Cabotto real surname to Cabot?, Is it that they could nationalize a name but not a surname, and that is why the had to remain with the Cabot surname. I can start other day about it.

Saludos.

How ancient is your ancient? 776BC would count as ancient in Greece, which would be like yesterday for the Egyptians and so on.

Brief history of the EU from http://europa.eu.int/abc/history/index_en.htm and other sources:

1951: Belgium, West Germany, Luxembourg, France, Italy and the Netherlands become the European Coal and Steel Community

1957: Treaties of Rome, "European Economic Community" born

1973: Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom join in

1981: Greece joins in

1986: Spain and Portugal join in

1990: German reunification, East Germany absorbed

1992: Treaty of Maastricht, "European Union" born

1995: Austria, Finland and Sweden join in

2004: Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia join in

Pending: Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania

I completely disagree with the statement made by your prof - but have a vague understanding of where that attitude might have come from - (though from a professor??? )

Eddie writes:
"the French distanced themselves from Spain. They had suffered a humiliating defeat that would be remembered for centuries. Much of Europe followed suit because they valued their relationship with France more highly than that with Iberia. This was more the reason for Spain's isolation than the Pyrenees."

France weielded great economic and political influence throughout Europe for a good portion of history - plus during at least a portion of that time, Spain was heavily involved in the Americas' - her interests were directed elsewhere.
As was the case with Portugal re Brazil .....

Certainly, geography has always been a natural barrier especially prior to more efficient, aka modern, means of travel.
And yes, politics (+ econonomics and religion as they often go hand-in-hand) has always played a major role in influencing culture.

I think perhaps your professor was looking at very small and specialized segment of history rather than at the larger picture .....

My opinion is that this statement quite wrong.

Just a quick glance at history will tell us that:

- We were colonized by phoenicians, greeks and romans, just as most of Europe. There were roman emperors born in the hispanic provinces (an example of how integrated they were in the empire)

- We were invaded by goths (german tribes) and then arabs as other european countries (the arabs invaded also part of Italy, Greece, the Balcans...).

- In medieval times the Santiago's Road (Camino de Santiago) got into a constant influx of european pilgrims who brought their culture.

- The Catholic Kings made every possible alliance with european countries. The King Carlos I (V) was born in flanders. Felipe II was King of Spain, but also Flanders, Burgundy, Milan, Naples, Sardinia, Sicily,...

- We received the influence of different art styles, gothic, barroc, neoclassic...

- Then the influence of the French Revolution, being conquered by Napoleon...

And it was not until we entered Franco's dictatorship that Spain was blockaded and isolated not only from Europe, but from the rest of the world.

Until Franco's regime decayed and we entered the European Union and the NATO.

Fernando

I think that long ago (thousands of years ago) that if you were "Mediterranean" you never considered yourself "European" but rather... Mediterranean. And if you were "European" you didn't consider yourself "Mediterranean". Of course we cannot know what people thought of themselves before the vast majority of people didn't leave their own communities and immediate surrounding areas. Do we believe that the ancient Greeks & Italians thought of themselves as Europeans? While I don't know for sure I imagine they didn't but considered themselves Mediterranean?

I'm learning a lot from this topic. Let's keep the discussion going. No doubt my New Years' trip to Greece will further educate me in how Greeks saw themselves as citizens of their immediate world.

Saludos, MadridMan