hey everybody

first of all im not being pessimistic about spain because i love spain and think its great there.

but im sure spain is not perfect and that it has its problems.

i recognize the unemployment and eta problems, some inflation problems.

are there any more society problems in spain.if so can anybody inform me on them.

thank you

I think that now the biggest problems are the price of the houses, and the degradation in public Health Insurance and in Education.
Although there's a problem with corruption, lack of civism, etc.. but I think this are general in all the world.

hey everybody

thanks miguelito

is there anymore or is that it?

from the other miguelito

Well,TRAFFIC.
Specially around Madrid. Last Tuesday morning we had 120 accidents in the Madrid area. 120!!!
It was the first rainy day after 4 months, and the city went mad.

It seems that Spain is constantly in a fresh-water/drinking-water shortage. Is this correct, Spaniards? (et. al.)

Not constantly. There are parts that have BIG problems: the south east and Canary Islands.
Central Spain, including Madrid, suffers droughts from time to time, the last one was severe and lasted from 1994 to 1997.
The last 5 years have been wet around Madrid, and right now the season has changed and it's raining A LOT.

Fmiketheman , I think that the real problems of Spain are:

1.- The price of flats and houses.
Spain is the european country where more have been grow up the prices.

2.- The lack of inversions in investigation and digital technology.

3.-Inflation . 4th in EU.

4.- Corruption :
Spain is the 5th country more corrupted of first world , only Italy , Japan , Greece and Ireland are worse.

5.- The independentist problem.

6.- Unemmployement:

In Spain 9.8% of people is unemployed . EU 6.5
USA 6.3%.

THOSE ARE NOT REAL PROBLEMS OF SPAIN , ONLY TOPICS:

7.- The Differences of richness beetween aurtonomies:
If the money that earns a person in the EU per year was 100
in Madrid is 104 , in Catalunya 105 , but in Andalucia is 54 , in Extremadura 51 .
1.- ETA .
ETA only kill 3, 4 persons at year ( that.s horrible) but in USA , Ireland , France , Indondesia , Turkey , Russia .........have been more terrorist attacks.

2.- Spaniards are Lazies:
Only Japanese and people from USA work more hours than spaniars in all hole world.

3.-Violence :
Spain is one of the most safetly places of Europe , as a USA friend of mine say:
" In Spain I never feel phisyc danger....but pickpockets...."

Well finally I must say that Spain will become the Florida of the EU , ( I hope become the "Calofornia")...
Spain have grow up about 3% per year in last 7 and rest of EU 1.5% that means Spain will have the same richness than France in 7 or 8 years....

Well sorry for my horible english .....

I would say:

1-Political Corruption (worsens all the following) besides corrupting all areas of the country: judicial, administrative, ..., in the high levels. Fortunately the average spanish person is pretty honest in spite of this, else, this would be caos.

2- Housing: The Big Problem. For the salary level, it's extraordinarily high the cost of rent or the price of a flat.

Politicians make bussiness with their partners in the building and state sector, Town Councils get money from land speculation that they throw away because they are very inefficient and have no control, and statistics controlled by Government hide it: Not included in Prices statistics. Thus, if "inflation" is being these days a 2-4%, only by including this lacking data would take inflation to well over 7%. As inflation is used by labour Unions to claim for raises, salaries have been growing about 2,5 to 4,5% for many years while housing is growing over 10% each year, impoverishing population at an amazing speed.

There have been statistics in the media reflecting how our housing prices have rocketed, being close to the european average, while we earn about a 40%-50% of their salaries. Also, the percentage of effort one has to do to buy a small flat (almost the same to rent it) is well over 50% of a couple's combined salaries. And this, only because interest rates are earth low, else it would be much more!

3-False! Unemployment is not a real problem, in despite of statistics. 99% of the people have a work if they want to.

So, why are the statistics like that, and what's the real problem?

-Statistics: Because many people work under the table because they prefer to keep on having their miserable unemployment help to complement their miserable wages.
And because many times employers don't offer a contract: "Under the table or nothing".

-So, what we don't have is an unemployment crisis, we have an income crisis, because people work but work for peanuts (because they have no other chance). This is a wonderful country (good climate, fun, ...) if you can skip misery! So the REAL problem is:

4- Rubbish-contracts or under the table hirings that make people work for amounts that don't let them leave their parents', or have a family, much less buy a "cheap" flat. People DO work, but many times what they get is spent in transport, lodging and meals out (no time to go back home many times outside the city), ... Sometimes I wonder why they do (some don't, prefer study or try to improve their skills in some way while they wait for a job that is paid enough to cover the bills. Some study for years at their parents 12/14 hours a day to become a public servant (many times 30+ persons for a position, sometimes 300).

These people work mainly because they have faint hopes of improving in the long run in the firm or acquire experience for leaving to a better position, that don't use to come out. They work also because they don't want to be unemployed or an eternal student.

5-Cities are becoming unhabitable: It's true that Madrid has much less population and cars than, for example, New York, but the way it's organized and the bad design of the scarce infrastructures we have make driving a hell.

Plus, the bonus-malus insurance system is another corrupt system, because nobody acknowledges their fault in the frequent crashes or parking bumps because they would lose the discount in the fee. SO insurances charge you lots of money with small responsabilities. Only big accidents, where they can not run away, because if somebody hits your car, he leaves and if you see it he wont accept his responsability, people will not want to act as witnesses, and you are f*cked.

Underground and buses are always crowded, some lines (in Madrid specially 5) have frequent breakdowns, or delays, and are pretty slow.

Due to housing costs many people has to live outside the big cities (to save a little, almost as expensive as the other option), which is a real problem because of dayly hour's long traffic jams and deficient bus service.

And so on. Good for fun, bad for living.

6-Degradation of Public Services: PP has destroyed a Health system that even Ms. Clinton evaluated to export to the USA. Now, they multiplied the people they have to attend by hosting millions of inmigrants with the same installations. In Madrid, 4.000.000 people have received about 1.000.000 inmigrants in about 8 years, but no more doctors or hospitals. They "solve" this problem (apparently) by paying Government friends expensive private hospitals to take care of some of the work. Our money thrown away with their friends!

Or you can buy a private policy with their friend's insurance companies if you want to have proper asistance. Going backwards!

But the worst is for that poor people who can't pay this and go to the doctor and they give you (recent cases in the newspapers, and they are not exceptions by any means):

-One year for a gincologic revision if there is any problem.

-Six months or more for a revision on possible cancer cases (many times by then you're dead).

And so on

******

Inflation (acording tostatistics) is not a problem. 4% is nothing. But the real one (7-10%) IS a real problem, specially because salaries are somehow indiciated with "statistical inflation".

*****

Independentism is not a problem. It's just a political option. It's only a problem (an ethical problem) for those who oppose to a people's will.

*****

Once again, the differences you refer, Pippo, are only the half-truths (the worse lies) that the media filter:

Madrid 104, Extremadura 51, OK, however, an equivalent flat in Extremadura is less than 50% the price in Madrid. The same applies to most things: foor, transportation, ... Doesn't apply only to country prices (like energy or phone cost) or international prices, and these are a samll percentage of the monthly expenses of a family. Thus, a person living in Extremadura earning half that a madrileño earns is, however, richer. funny, no?

Besides, if yo refer to the AVERAGE EU income, then take into account that the income obtained in the richer regions of the country is scarcely above of the EU average. If you went to Antibbes in France, don't you think there people get Paris' salaries. About the half?

*****

ETA and the Spanish Government. Both are to blame for the actual situation. 'nuff said.

*****

Droughts: They wouldn't be a real problem, if water wasn't spilled freely. We have momre water than necessary, however, if we use natural water (not recycled water) for indutrial purposes or agriculture, if we want to convert Murcia and Valencia in the garden of Europe (one thing is that they are extremely good lands for fruits and vegetables, and other that hundreds of thousands of tons have to be trasferred to keep this garden alive, stealing it to other (by the way, underdeveloped by lack of government help, unlike M. and V.) and paying for this unafordable expenditure ALL the spanish, so that they can have water at a ridiculous price, muche less that a tenth of the regular price. Lets have those farms but only those that can live without these water subventions!

The same applies to Golf courses in Almeria and other regions, taht demand enormous amounts of water because... They are in deserts! Believe it or not. All the year water is poured in these desertic areas for tourists to have a golf course. D*mmit.

80%-90% of the water spent in the country is for agriculture and industry's unefficient production. I laugh at the Government's advices that citizens save water, and spend even more. Why they don't begin by themselves and their industrial tycoon and farmers voters first?

I would say Spain has a specific problem with roads/driving styles. The number of people killed each year in road accidents is incredible. In just July and August this year (the holiday months) nearly 900 people were killed! (that's DIED, God knows how many more were seriously injured). If this kind of death toll occurred for any other reason (plane/train accidents, terrorism, disease, you name it)the country would come to a halt, a state of emergency would be declared. But it's the just the roads, it merits 5 minutes discussion on a "tertulia" program and that's the end of it.

Obviously, other countries suffer road accidents but the rate in Spain (e.g deaths per million kilometers travelled) is amongst the highest - e.g.,4 times higher than that in the UK (a much more densely populated country).

I.m gonna put this replay in spanish cause my english don.t let me explain exactly like I want.
Sorry if someone don.t understand it.

IGNACIO:

1.- La corrupcion en España no esta extendida a todos los ambitos de la estructura del pais , de hecho nuestro sistema judicial no es ni mucho menos mas corrupto que el estadounidense o el frances ( y si quieres entramos en datos concretos para demostrartelo), otra cosa es que sean ineficientes o esten mal dotados ( tema aparte).
La verdadera corrupcion en España se centra al 90%
( y se de lo que estoy hablando) en la adquisicion del suelo via ayuntamiento por parte de los empresarios y en la adjudicacion de obras publicas ( previo pago de mordida).
El problema se solucionaria rapido prohibiendo constitucionalmente que los ayuntamientos pudieran disponer del suelo a su libre antojo y negandoles la `posibilidad de que su presupuesto supere sus ingresos ...( hay ciertos casos flagrantes donde alcaldes de poblaciones de tamaño mediano han dejado una deuda ignominiosa bloqueando el futuro del pueblo).

2.- El problema del precio de la vivienda:

Tiene 3 partes:

a) Como los ayuntamientos se financian a traves del suelo ponen este a subasta lo cual encarece el precio ( a lo que hay que sumar la comision para el concejal de turno). De tal modo no les interesa hacer viviendas de proteccion oficial porque el precio del suelo que ellos mismos venden bajaria.

b) España es un pais en el que casi la totalidad de sus ciudadanos quieren ser propietarios.
( esto no ucurre en el resto de Europa).

c) En España existe la legislacion mas agresiva para el arrendador de todo el mundo , con lo que sumado a la lentitud de la justicia hace que la mayoria de propietarios se nieguen a alquilar lo que provoca que el precio suba al haber menos oferta.
Ante un alquiler elevado al ciudadano le compensa comprar .........con lo cual es un circulo vicioso.

3.- Desempleo :
El para es un problema REAL , tal vez un madrileño pueda tener un trabajo mal pagado de peon , pero un asturiano lo tiene dificil , no digamos un leones o alguien que viva en Jaen .
Eso se solucionaria rapido favoreciendo ( como SE HACE EN CUALQUIER OTRO PAIS LA MOVILIDAD LA BORAL pero como existe el problema de la vivienda tampoco puede conseguirse)
Lo de los contratos basura si que es un mito ( al menos poniendolo en un contexto internacional) , yo aconsejo a todo el mundo a que se de un viaje por USA ( donde te dan la patada y te callas , Irlanda donde te putean hasta la ignominia , etc...)
Si de verdad queremos compararnos a paises donde hay una buena proteccion laboral ( como los nordicos) deberemos empezar borrando del mapa las altas indemnizaciones que se pagan por despido a los trabajadores fijos ( antes 45 dias por año y ahora 33 frente a los 20 de media Europea).
Conozco pequeños empresarios que hace años antes de que se iniciaran los contratos basura se arruinaron al despedir a uno de sus trabajadores.
Ante el peligro de tener q pagar 8 millones si despides a alguien un empresario no contratara a nadie si hay un aumento de la demanda ya q cuando baje no podra despedirle de forma economica con lo cual la economia se resiente porque no se expande en los picos , que ocurre entonces:
Se hace un contrato basura.

4.- El sistema de salud publico:
Es uno de los mas baratos y eficientes del mundo.
En España cualquier modesto trabajador tiene acceso a los mejores tratamientos ante las enfermedades . Y si esta es importante TE ASEGURO que no haces cola.
Es cierto , eso si , que debido a la masificacion , en caso de ser una enfermedad leve has de pasar una larga espera , pero no es menos cierto que cualquier ciudadano estadounidense parado se daria con un canto en los dientes por tener un seguro q le cubra tan universalmente.
Si creemos que el sistema de salud español no es bueno , comparemoslo con el ingles.

5.- El independentismo SI es un problema:

Y lo es porque nunca acepta una votacion democratica a menos que apoye sus intereses ......
¿ se detuvo en Quebec cuando los ciudadanos dijeron que querian continuar siendo Canadienses ?? No , no se hizo , en menos de 15 años obligaron a hacer 3 consultas.

En caso de hacerla y salir si a la independencia inyectarian dinero en Navarra constantemente para anexionarsela ESTO ES UN HECHO.
Dar esa opcion a Euzkadi daria la oportunidad a Catalunya Y YO ASEGURO q una Euzkadi independiente no afectaria demasiado a ESpaña pero una CATALUNYA SI . españa se vendria abajo y si quieres te lo demuestro.

Si que hay diferencias de riqueza entre Madrid y extremadura , y las hay porque en Madrid los precios solo son un 8% mas caros ( he estdo en las dos comunidades y no es tan barata extremadura excepto los pisos). Mientras q el sueldo es un 100% superior en Madrid.
Multiplica esa difrencia de sueldo por la diferncia de precio de un piso y observaras q en Madrid hay mas riqueza.

Como resumen:

Segun la ONU España es el 9 pais del mundo en calidad de vida

I am answering in English because post in Spanish are not allowed in English language forums at MM's. Obviously people who read the previous posts in English may want to follow the discussion. However, I will be briefer, because of the same reason you give:

1-Corruption is a problem in all areas. may I remind you some:

Bank of Spain- MAriano Rubio (Governor)
Banco Central Hispano - Mario COnde (persident) and others.

BAnco Bilbao- Vizcaya most of the components of the Board.

Banco Santander "Prima Única" affair Emilio Botín (President)

Banca Catalana.

Statistics of the Catalonian Government.

Recent sentences of High Tribunals, finally denounced even by PSOE (when affected only).

Banning investigating anti-corruption prosecutor by Government.

Destroying anti-corruption prosecutor office by oveloading it with other affairs.

Estate scandal in the Madrid Assembly, including political defection of PSOE members.

Colonel of the Guardia Civil suicides because of being relegated after uncovering corrupt practices with policemen salaries.

Marbella Town Council accused of corruption under three different consecutive administrations.

General Secretary of PP in Madrid Community is named counsellor of Caja de Madrid bank with PP votes as a good-bye gift from his party because he'll have to leave politics after making fraudulent Seguridad SOcial practices.

Real Madrid president buys a land for Real Madrid that had not been allowed constructing before to the previous owner for three years. Pays bargain price. Then resells to Real Madrid, with a 100% revenue within a month (around 100 million euros, I believe, I can look it up), still a bargain price, so Real MAdrid partners won't sue him.

Real Madrid builds in a land that was expropiated more that 30 years ago, only for parks and sports functions. Sued by owners.

Rato (economy minister) family enjoys advantages in their firms.

Aguirre (candidate to Madrid Assembly) family has lands that happen to be where the AVE to Barcelona stops. They start a huge complex.

and so on..

I could be writing till tomorrow. For God's sake, what world do you live at?

The housing problem has nothng to do with the fact that people wants to have property. There is plenty of property offered, enough for them unless because there is a lot of firms and rich particulars buying to speculate. This should be forbidden, because it's a first necessity good. Imagine the same with food? You'd have to pay the price they wanted for bread and milk. ¿10 €? ¿50€?

In Spain there are more than 1.000.000 flats and houses unocupied.

Spain produces more flats a year than France and Germany together, which have 3.5 as much population (140 million/40 million).

So, don't tell me that they are expensive because there is many buyers and few flats, because without that speculation they'd be earth low.

And one of the reasons why people buy is because rents are very high too for our salary level. It's not that renters don't want to rent, it's that they can ask for whatever they want because the other option (impossible for many) is buying.

So they rise prices, and now, you pay 1,3 € to the bank for each 1 € you'd pay in rent, so many people prefers buying because rent is so high.

Unemployment: Yes, I would have liked too that they gave me a work at home, and the Government has made a very bad policy of concentrating a lot of activities in Madrid, so I work here instead of at home, too.

But you have to work wherever the work is. In the USA you have no secure job many times, but at least you get a salary you can live on.

Health: Propaganda, I a pretty sure you have just copy/pasted a leaflet of the PP.

One of the best systems in the world? In the past it used to be a very good one. Nothing more.

Cheap? Only because you don't pay it doesn't mean that it's free. WE all have to pay for it and it ain't cheap (even more for the scarce prestations it gives).

So, you think that when a woman has a frightening (for her) tumour inside her vagina or womb, and they tell her to come back in a year, that's unimportant? There have been plenty of testimonies at "20minutes" newspaper, for example.

Or when people has a tumour that looks like cancer and they are called for six months later?

Or when I broke one of my spinal disks and I never got a good TAC or scan but X-rays (where you only see bones) making me have pains (sometimes severe) for 10 years until some of my fingers begun to lose ensibility and they made a proper study?

... Don't tell this tale, there is spanish people here, who knows this well.

Independentism is only a political option. The same options many countries had, strating by the USA, Argentina and many others. The problems always comes from intolernce in either side.

About prices in Extremadura and Madrid, you acknowledge the housing matter, and it's more than 50% of the expenditure of families, many times more. As for the rest, I have not lived in Extremadura, have been there on holidays only, but I kow vey well other provinces, and transport, food, fun... are a lot cheaper, at least 50% in many cases.

Ignacio , no quiero que esto se vuelva una de esas discusiones donde cada cual solo procura hacer el comentario mas inteligente y donde los argumentos se cruzan con medias verdades , todo ello termina en comentarios agrios y procesos de intenciones ( como decir que mos ideas son inspiradas por el programa del PP)pero creo necesarias ciertas puntualizaciones a tus comentarios . Todo ello basado en mi propia opinion que es tan valida o tan erronea como la de cualquier otro:

1.- Corrupcion:
Comentas que esta extendida por todos los ambitos de la vida española.
Para mi eso no es cierto , o por lo menos no esta mas extendida que en cualquier otro pais desarrollado.
Ej.- USA:
Worldcom ( el mayor escandalo empresarial de todos los tiempos)
Florida ( uno de los mayores robos politicos)
Bonos Basura ( el mayor timo de la historia)

FRANCIA:
Financiacion de los partidos Gaullista y socialista ( algo que deja el caso filesa a la altura del betun)
Caso de la sangre contaminada ( muchisimas personas murieron por la codicia de empresarios y politicos y ninguno de los maximos responsables ha sido encarcelado)
Alcaldia de Paris ( el señor Chirac ha esquilmo las arcas municipales siendo alcalde).

ITALIA:
Jueces comprados por la camorra.
Politicos mafiosos
Legislacion Berlusconi favoreciendo descaradamente sus intereses empresariales ( prevaricacion y trafico de influencias)

¿¿ he de seguir con mas paises o dar mas casos de corrupcion???.....¿¿ significa q Francia o USA son mas corruptos que España?
España no es un pais corrupto al estilo de una republica bananera , es un pais donde la corrupcionse centra sobre todo en aspectos inmobiliarios y tu mismo al citar los ejemplos de corrupcion de España me estas dando la razon ya que mezclas casos pasados ( Mario conde , Mariano Rubio ) con casos inmobiliarios ( Marbella , asamblea de Madrid , Florentino y el Real).
Respecto a los comentarios que haces de Aguirre y Rato el primero tambien es un caso inmobiliario y el segundo se ha demostrado ( los mismos portavoces de IU tuvieron que reconocerlo ) que no habia ni una sola prueba .

2.- Precio de la vivienda , aqui los dos coincidimos que es un verdadero problema pero tu dices que eso no tiene nada que ver con el hecho de que en España la gente quiera ser propietaria.....
Bueno te he dado 3 razones de porque el precio es el que es( la mas importante es el tema de los ayuntamientos) ....lo que dices de la especulacion de los particulares no es una CAUSA es un EFECTO , ¿ si vivieramos en una sociedad como la alemana en la que el 60% de la poblacion esta alquilada como se especularia??????
¿ subiria el precio como la espuma??....yo creo que no , el precio de los pisos es alto porque hay demanda para cubrir la oferta ( en España un piso tarda 35 dias en venderse de media frente a 97 en la EU), no me vale el argumento de que aqui se construye mas que en Alemania y Francia porque es un argumento tendencioso , en España el 50% de las viviendas estan en lugares turisticos por lo que forzosamente han de estar inhabitadas.

Lo de querer prohibir la especulacion en la vivienda me parece una medida IMPOSIBLE por las mas variadas razones , como que los pisos se escrituran por la mitad de su valor , ni el mas izquierdista de los gobiernos haria NI HARA eso.

El ciclo es el siguiente:
El ayuntamiento vende un suelo carisimo , a lo que se suma la mordida, el empresario construye y DE INMEDIATO tiene un comprador ya que los intereses son bajos y el alquiler prohibitivo.

En cuanto al hecho de porque el alquiler es caro , ahi todo el mundo esta de acuerdo , incluso los tertulianos de hora 25 ( que no son muy de derchas):
En españa existe la legislacion mas dura para el arrendador de todo el mundo, si tu pones un piso en alquiler y el tipo no te paga no podras hecharlo antes de un año ) sin contar los destrozos que pueda hacerte y que no vas a cobrar.
No digamos ya los alquileres de renta antigua en los q los arrendados pagan 12 euros por pisos de 200m y no puedes expulsarlos hasta que se mueran.
Eso disuade al propietario a alquilar .
En Madrid hay 35mil viviendas vacias cuyos propietarios no quieren vender ¿¿¿ porq no alquilan?? por lo dicho.

3.- Sistema sanitario:
España es el pais de la UE con mas supervivientes al cancer , es el segundo pais con mayor esperanza de vida del mundo solo superado por Japon ( en esto la dieta tiene un factor muy importante pero si el sistema fuera tan malo la mortalidad seria mas elevada).
Yo te reto a que me demuestres a que persona con un posible cancer le han dado una lista de espera de 6 meses.
A mi me dieron una de 2 meses para unas placas de lumbago.Pero no voy a entrar en la casuistica.Porque cada persona tiene un mundo de experiencias distintas.
He de reconocerte que no es barata , ahi tienes razon porque el hecho de que salga de nuestros impuestos no significa que sea gratis.

Pero si significa que cualquier parado esta bien tratado mientras que un parado de USA ha de irse a la beneficencia y rezar.
Lo de que en USA con un sueldo te da para vivir habria que matizarlo porque no es raro que muchos ciudadanos tengan 2 y 3 trabajos.

4.-Independentismo:
Es cierto es una opcion , y tambien es un problema por sus efectos. USA se nego a que se independizaran los estados sureños y provoco una guerra encarnizada , Francia no acepta la independencia de Corcega y UK la de Irlanda , podria seguir nombrando muchos paises.
Aun asi yo soy partidario de la legalidad , si la independencia se consigue por mnedios no solo pacificos sino legales pues que venga .......pero que se le explique exactamente a los ciudadanos lo que significaria la autodeterminacion de Euskal Herria:
1.- Anexion de Navarra.
2.- Limpieza cultural de todo lo español,.
3.- Problemas con Francia . ( al igual que Turquia no quiere un kurdistan independiente Iraqui por el posible contagio Francia no quiere hoy pais vasco independiente y esa es una de las principales causas por las que incrementa su colaboracion ya que los etarras estan aumentando sus reivindicaciones y el plan Ibarretxe contempla una posible anexion de Iparralde)
4.- mimetismo de Catalunya ....esto haria ( ya que Catalunya es la mayor potencia de España , la subida de impuestos para pagar a autonomias pobres , con lo vual se resentiria la industria y aumentaria el paro ,si a eso unimos las aspiraciones de crear unos "Paisos Catlans " que integren Valencia y Baleares el golpe seria brutal.

Como digo , no estoy en contra PERO Q SE LE EXPLIQUE CLARAMENTE A LOS CIUDADANOS LO QUE PUEDE OCURRIR.

5.- Finalmente:
Lo que de verdad me tiene harto es el nivel de pesimismo y agresiva autocritiza que se tiene en este pais , si alguien lleva la bandera es tachado de facha ( y tu sabes que es asi ) , en muchos lugares no se puede nombrar ESPAÑA se ha de decir estado español u otro eufemismo.
Estoy harto , muy harto .
Hace falta salir y darse una vuelta por fuera del pais para apreciar lo que uno tiene y donde vive , ver como los edificios publicos se caen a pedazos en muchas partes de Francia desde Carceles a Ayuntamientos , ver las carreteras tercermundistas de Irlanda o el absoluto estado de presion laboral en USA.
Cuando ves eso te das cuenta que esos paises no son mejores que el tuyo ( ni peores ) sino que en todo el mundo cuecen habas.
Un pais donde la gente tiene la segunda esperanza de vida del mundo , el segundo porcentaje de universitarios del mundo , la renta mas repartida del primer mundo y donde la sanidad y la educacion son universales....es un buen pais , y eso no tiene que ver con el PP o el PSOE.

Lo triste es que hay personas que niegan todas esas evidencias para autoflagelarse injustamente.
Con esto acabo. Siento si algo te ha ofendido o si he sido rudo de verdad q mi intencion no es esa . Solo dar fe de que aqui se vive bien y decir esto sin tintes chauvinistas...

Un saludo.

I think that the political party Democrazy National will work for Spain. Its like have all the benefits of democrazy with out the hard ships such as immagration,gangs, and your typical government corruption. It also isn't fascist so therefore is more a moderate nationalistic government when you guys think??? :p

I'll write something else tomorow. Now, it's 4 a.m..

I just wanted to say, right now a couple of things:

- I am not offended in any way by what you expose, you do it respectfully. I want to excuse myself if I disturbed you, because I sometimes get angry too, about certain matters, hence my "Don't tell this tale" "For God's sake, what world do you live at?", which are not rude but are a little agressive, however.
Temper.

- I made special mark on what we disagree, but, because of time constraints, I didn't emphasize the points that I would agree (there are several).

Quintos: I just read your post. I don't know that party Democrazy National , and this fact and the sound of the name makes me think of fascism. So I am wrong? Where can I get info in the Net?

http://www.democracianacional.org you sould be able to get some info their.

Thanks, Quintos.

Well, I think they are nothing new under the sun. I went through their program,and it seems to me almost copied from Falange's.

A huge emphasis in spanish nationalism, vague generalizations on economic growth mixed with a certain state protection to workers, a like for policial state, and they confess they are not "democrats" the way we define that word. They support another way to express democracy ¿las Juntas de las JONS?

I still may be wrong, but I believe they look like falangistas. For those who don't know falange, in my opinion, Falange's got good and (more) bad things but it is close to facsist and somehow to nazi positions (less).

Remember that Nazi (NAzional Sozialist)party, was, in the beginning a split of the socialist/communist party, that developed an intense national feeling (and xenophobic),but their roots always tended to "fatherly" protect the lower classes in an attempt to hold their support.

I disagree the Falange and Nationalist Socialism is two diferent things the Falange is an extremely conservative government with very strong Catholic ties and is of course fascist but they don't show the extreme racial hatred that a Nazi would they are a bite more mild on that term but they do how ever oppose immagration which is of course a very good thing in my opinion any ways. Any way dont want to start an argument we all know about the attrocities that the Falange has to Spanish people but SOME of their ideals could be put to use right about now.

I don't want either.

I was just getting info, (Thanks) and sharing my toughts for those who may not know the party or it's political orientation.

Don't worry, be happy.

No problem my pleasure.

hey everybody

thats nice ignacio and quintos

i got to tell you all something(including both of you)

thank you all for your good and complete answers and comments!

another thing:
i never knew some of these problems existed.
otherwise spain is a great country with a high standard of living from what i see written here.

Thanks fmiketheman.

I agree that Spain is a country thet's good to live at. This is one of the points I agree with Pippo. It's good in spite of all that problems.

It's like California, you can have fun, but everything is expensive, so many people can't enjoy that fun as they like and they have to party at home or in the beach wether they like or not, and buying estate is really difficult for many. That's why it's better for fun and holidays than for living.

But it's good nevertheless, and the good is NOT by economic situation, which has improved greatly because of the effect of joining the EU and the euro afterwards (although there were some nuisances too). In the quality of life (not standard of life ) report that Pippo speaks about, we are up in the table mainly because it measures a lot of inputs like weather, environment, education, ..., that are totally or partially autonomous of government policies.

I mean, weather is a good thing in Spain, but it has always been, and will be, unless the climate changes modify it. But when we speak about the spaniards situation and problems, we can not consider that, and the list Pippo refers to includes it.

As a proof that what I said is a majoritary feeling, that is in the newspaper almost everyday, I'll include four of the seven "letters to the manager" of the 20Minutes newspaper of today (Madrid), about three different aspects of the previously spoken ( in spanish), sorry:

This girl speaks of most of what I wrote first,and her point of view is exactly the same as mine:

España va bien

Las condiciones laborales suelen ser bastante precarias: contratos temporales, jornadas muy largas... Los sueldos son ínfimos en relación al coste de los bienes de consumo. Con el euro ha subido todo. Las viviendas son prácticamente inasequibles, incluso en barrios periféricos. Esto nos lleva a ir en transporte público, en el que viajamos aglomerados y donde sufrimos huelgas, retrasos... Las carreteras en buenas condiciones y sin atascos son de pago. A la enseñanza pública se la ha olvidado. Las guarderías son caras y no se puede dejar a un niño pequeño diez horas en ella (lo que dura cualquier jornada laboral). La Policía está más preocupada por recaudar fondos con multas que por mejorar la seguridad ciudadana. Los empresarios cada vez abusan más, tanto de inmigrantes como de españoles.

Y se nos dice por televisión que España va bien. Lo que no dicen es que sólo para los que tienen dinero. Gema González | 23 años.


This other complains about problems in the jobs market, with the exams to become civil servant, denouncing illegalities (doesn't say that there is "tongo", but many others do):

Oposiciones de 2001

Tenía entendido que quien hace algo ilegal paga, ¿no? Pues tengo entendido que no es legal sacar una oferta de empleo público y convocar la oposición pasado un año. Llevamos desde 2001 esperando a que los responsables que ofertaron empleo público para educadores de disminuidos psíquicos en la Comunidad de Madrid saquen la dichosa convocatoria. ¿Por esta ilegalidad alguien paga algo? Se ha quedado anticuado hasta el término disminuido, hoy hablamos de personas con discapacidad. Estamos hartos/as de esperar. S.R.C.



Speaking of medical atention by Seguridad Social:

Ginecólogo a 600 días

Habéis publicado que el tiempo medio de espera en las consultas de ginecología es de 240 días. ¿En estos días también contáis los que pasan desde que tu médico decide que tienes que ir al especialista hasta que te dan la cita?

Lo digo por mi caso. En febrero, mi médico me mandó a la consulta de ginecología de la Clínica de la Concepción, y la cita me la han dado hace unos días. En total, 7 meses, unos 210 días, que sumados a que la cita me la han dado para octubre del año que viene son casi 600 días. Además, mi consulta es para un posible caso de esterilidad y tengo 35 años. La sanidad pública funciona muy bien, sobre todo para quien no necesite usarla. A. López.


This girl had been working for more than ten years at a Town Hall installations and has an excellent CV, but it has just been sacked just after going to the recent ellections in the loser party :

Monitora y candidata

Soy monitora de aerobic, con titulación en diversas modalidades y más de 15 años de experiencia; los últimos cuatro, en Serranillos del Valle, 2.700 habitantes, a 10 km de Fuenlabrada.

Quisiera dar las gracias a la alcaldesa y a la Concejalía de Deportes, sin olvidarme de los técnicos deportivos subcontratados por el municipio, por el respeto y buena voluntad mostrados tras las pasadas elecciones municipales no dándome ninguna oportunidad de seguir ejerciendo otra temporada más mi trabajo por no cumplir el 'perfil laboral', según ellos. Y todo ello, a pesar de realizar un trabajo correcto, digno y apreciado por los alumnos, incluidas las clases sin cobrar a la tercera edad.

Y simplemente por haberme presentado las pasadas municipales en la lista electoral de la oposición. Elena Villa García | 39 años. Serranillos del Valle


You can see all the letters here
Online free newspaper, leader in readers in Madrid and Barcelona

Well the only thing I can comment on is the unemployment situation. I have firsthand experience with that being that my gf is a Spaniard.

I cannot tell you how many horror stories she has told me regarding employment/unemployment.

Most of the jobs offered to her and her friends (all college graduates) are only for 3 month periods with no promise of full-time afterwards.

They even have to lie and say they're still in school so the company can hire them. This way the company will pay them less than what they would have to pay them if they were graduates.

Just examples.

Mike

http://www.democracianacional.org/videos/a3tv/cortef.wmv you guys sould wach this video pretty interesting.

A few of the previous posts mentioned housing prices. Here is a link with housing prices in Spain from the previous trimester.

http://www.ibercity.com/housingprices.html

I wish I had the funds to buy apartments in Extremadura now. In my opinion over the next few years those prices are going to go up big time.

You probably say this because Extremadura is the cheaper price in the list. However, the reason because it is the cheaper is not just because.

The reason is because it's an underdeveloped region, with no tourist industry or tourism attractives except some valleys with special climates and a couple of roman ruins.

You could be right that prices will go up there, since they are so cheap in comparison, but I doubt it. There is not, and probably there will not be, a great demand.

No, I say it becasue I know Extremadura very well, its land and its people. The government is doing quite a bit to attract business there by offering grant and subsidy programs. As does Murcia, La Rioja etc.

Would you rather invest now while the region is underdeveloped or later when its developed?

http://www.sofiex.es/ingles/index.html

http://www.sofiex.es/espanol/indexfomb.html

http://www.juntaex.es

Excellent thread! Gracias Pippo and Ignacio for explaining the complexity of the problems.

Recently my uncle visited the farm where my grandfather was born in Aviles to attend my cousin's wedding. My cousin and her fiance waited eleven years to get married, because they wanted to have their own house in Oviedo, where they both work. It took them that long to save enough to buy a very modest two bedroom flat.

Eleven years!

Hello BookLady , Like I said before , I think Spain it.s a very , very , very complex country , and his problems ( and his good things) are not very known , probably by the periferic role developed by Spain since 1818 in Europe.

I think there.s some things that people must know about Spain , good and bad things:

1.- WEDDING:

Spain is the Occidental country where more older get married people. 30.5 ( men), 27.6 ( women).
The reasons are :

a) Price of flats , very highs , ( but in my opinion this is no the basic causa)
If that was the fundamental causa the richest people would get married younger than middle-class and that not happen .

b)Behaviour of young people:
In Spain people like to have a very extended " adolescense" , youngmen go to party untill 8 o.clock and they do that untill 30 years old ( a lot of times older ) , matbe some people couyld thind that is not a reason , But I think it is. In other post I will explain why.

c) Culture:
Spain a Latin country , and like Italy or Portugal we have a very strong sense of family , and mother .

2.- DEMOGRAPHY:

Spain is the 2 Country in woprls where people have less babies ( Italy is the first).
That thing is relationed with before.
Is this because there.s some economic causa??

I think no:
a.- The quality of life in Spain have grown up since sixties without stop but natality have go down.

b.- The reason is : Comodity .

3.-SPAIN HAVE THE GREATEST PERCENTAGE OF OCCIDENTAL WORLS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE THEIR OWN HOUSE OR FLAT:
91%.
That means great prices ( one of the REASONS NOT THE ONLY). In Spain is a shame that a person could not buy his own house.

4.- SPAIN HAS NO GROUP CONSCIENSE:

Here I.m gonna put a article of El Pais Newspaper , it.s in Spanish ,sorry, but I think it.s very CLARIFICADOR.

" A la pregunta de con que nacionalidad se identificaba mas si la española , la autonomica o la Europea el 32.5 por cien de los encuestados respondieron Española , un 20.9 por cien Europea , un 20.1 respondio con la de su autonomía respectiva , un 19.9 respondio todas y un 6.6 dio respuestas varias.
A la pregunta de cual era su raza ( pregunta hecha a hombres y mujeres nacidos en España y de padres españoles) el 36% respondio mediterranea , el 30% caucasica , el 24 % latina y el 10% hispana . A la pregunta de que naciones cree que son mas similares a España las respuestas fueron:
38.1% Italia , 20.8 Portugal , 19.2 Argentina , 15.5 Europa en su conjunto y 6.4 Latinoamerica en su conjunto "
If you take this opinions and think about it you must extract a lot of conclusions about the group conscience ....more and more if yoy knows that 25% of spaniards citizens
speak frecuently other spaniard language different than castillian.

5.- TOURISM

Spain is the Second turist market of world ( France is the First ) . more than 60 millions of persons visit Spain each year.

6.- INVESTIGATION AND TECHNOLOGY:

Spain is one of the countris that less invert in i+D in the first worls and that.s the great problem of the economy for stop the inflation ( 3% per year)

7.- SPAIN IS THE COUNTRY OF FIRST WORLD WITH LESS PERCENTAGE OF NO TEMPORAL WORK CONTRATS :
Only 9% , that was consecuence os the 70 and 80ties workin politic ............in other topic I will explain the reason ( LAS GRANDES INDEMNIZACIONES QUE DEBIAN PAGARSE A LOS TRABAJADORES FIJOS SI ERAN DESPEDIDOS , ALRREDEDOR DE 5 MILLONES DE MEDIA y PUDIENDE LLEGAR A 7 , 8 y MILLONES).

Well this will continue tomorrow....

( sorry for my horrible english , I know I must improve it)

for any one that says excuse my english ,i reply your english is very good (note that i reply in english my spanish is poor).I read these posts with interest but have little knowledge about politics (english or spanish)my husband says that i live in my little way where world events pass me by,its true.I go to Spain every year sometimes 2 or 3 times no im not rich but i get some great deals.I love cities and holiday resorts and i have a couple of questions? i got back from torremolinos yesterday,by my hotel there was a busy road,about 6pm there was a lot of noise cars using horns to the extreme, i went to investigate,a bus was dropping off people at the top of the road but people were using the horns at the bottom of the road they could not see what was the problem so why all the noise?what does this achieve .Also hotel waiters what hours do they work, ours always seemed to be their,is their pay still poor,they always appear happy and work so hard im curious

Pippo:

I grow weary of correcting your biased information. I don't have time for answering your messages the way you deserve. I´ll put this link so that people can see the evolution salaries-cost of living in the last 20 years:

(In spanish sorry)

Salaries multiplied by 2,44, estate by 5,92. 'nuff said.

I agree with Booklady. The ground that has been covered has been an enormous help to me in understanding the situation as it exists in Spain. Although I see similarities here in the U.S., I can understand why Spaniards would be concerned about the future, and where the nation is going in regards to the people.

I ask one question. How much of the corruption is related to the past? Is this a carryover situation that relates as far back as the Franco regime? Was it acceptable within their group, and now a problem because it was standard procedure?

Extremely interesting thread. I appreciate it being here.

Wolf

Well, Wolf. In Franco's times, people simply didn't have any information on corruption.

According to the dictator's media, all was perfectly well. The only info you had about corruption was through your personal experience in nepotism when finding a job, speculation with food prices (estraperlo), et caetera.

Nowadays, it's all the same. Nepotism and clientelism has invaded the few areas that were free, even civil servants examinations, the speculation with prices (that Franco fighted regulating them by law, and PSOE through mass imports) has changed into estate especulation.

This permitted game they play with our basic needs (food and shelter), rocketing prices for their benefit, giving their share to politicians to get their consent, is making us poorer. No matter if we have more pesetas or euros if they are not good enough to have a roof or buy healthy food (the food we can afford nowadays is each day of a worse quality, try to buy naturally grown products!).

This is very interesting because in the U.S. the cost of living is very high. There are many people who live in the the major cities who work two jobs just to be able to afford the apts. I also know that barcelona is planning on building 100.000 units over the next few years. The cost of housing is becoming out of reach for many spaniards.Salaries have to increase. The only draw back is that social bebefits might decrease. Germany is undergoing a reform to its system. No longer can indidviduals who are out of wok just collect money(the stipend has decreased). If there is a job available they must take it.

I took a class on the spanish civil war last semester. My teacher said that Aznar is a relative of Franco. She also said that many relatives of franco work in the Spanish government. I did not know this.