I was born in Madrid Spain and now live in Cal. I want people to understand that Spain in not very well off because of the Catalans Baque and Gibraltarians. The Basque and Catalans HAVE NEVER THANKED MADRID FOR THERE AUTONOMY NEVER! THEY ARE NEVER HAPPY THE BASQUE REMIND OF A SPOILED CHILD THAT MUST GET A TOY OR CANDY THEY ARE NEVER HAPPY SAME WITH THE CATALANS. why cant the Just face the fact that they are a part of Spain why must I feel like a freakin foreigner in my own country why does every freaking region have to be autonamus I believe the reason we have so much regionalism in Spain is because of Spains lack of authority im not going to stand and watch my country be torn to pieces by ETA.

I dont want to start this topic all over again ....but although you may be correct in saying that SOME basques act/feel this way- not ALL basques act/feel this way.

It's the small percentage of Ratical Nationalistic/Regionalistic Basques and Catalans who give the rest of the Basques and Catalans a bad name.

MadridMan, please close this thread...too much shouting...my ears hurt. I propose a moratorium on all ETA-related threads. We all have our opinions, (and everyone else's stinks but mine... ha ha... ), and we all end up bickering.

As Fernando referred to Spain, I will refer to this board: Our beauty lies in our diversity...(regardless of whether I get a piece of candy or not!)

People, we've talked about ETA about a hundred times here on our message board and the end is always the same; everyone gets too excited, no one budges with their opinions, and I end up closing the thread. If you'd like to read old, closed threads, I encourage you to use the SEARCH link above/right and read them at your leisure.

ETA's a hot topic and will be for as long as they exist.

'Nuff said. Saludos, MadridMan

Madridman,

before this thread becomes too heated, i'd like to state:

1. quintos, you seem very animated about this subject. why?

2. let's hear where you are coming from... what are you trying to address?

3. where in California are you?

Madridman, I'm going somewhere with this, and it's only because i've heard it before among people i know... if the thread becomes too heated, close it. if not, let's hear this guy out; he may know something (have a perspective) that we do not.

thanks,
andrew
:wq

1. the reason I am animated about the subject is because it seems as if people in Spain just don't want to Spanish for example Andalucia,Galicia,Basque land,catalans and gibraltar which are basically Spanish people refusing to be Spanish. If all these regions where to get autonomy what would be left of Spain then? Then who knows even more regions will follow.Its seems like the only region that doesn't want autonomy is Madrid.2 Im trying to addresse the problems Spain must face now and in the future.3.I live in southern California

I believe that Spain must unite together that is all. I also understand things have gotten better in the last few years but theres still alot of work to do and apologies to be said may Spain stay as the great nation it is now Espana una y grande.ps if this thread is closed so be it.

One more thing lol just had to squezz this in the word Spanish is simply latin for Iberian therefore there is nothing wrong with calling Basques and Catalans and even though we may be sperated linquisticly and culturally lets not forget we are all Iberians!

"España" comes from the latin word "hispania", not "Iberia". The Basques didn't roll over for the Romans [like the Cataláns did...as they have a lot in common with the French ], so calling them "hispanic" in the sense that they descended from the Roman tradition in Spain is as absurd as calling me an Ojibway or Sioux Indian since I grew up in the Midwestern U.S.

It's evident that the Basques could not survive economically on their own from Spain. Culturally, they will be fine, but economically, it's a sure thing that they would go through way too much hardship to make complete separation worthwhile.

perhaps you are correct but nonetheless Basques are still Iberians like every one else in Spain you cant argue with that.

So basicaly Basques are part of Spain for the money? :-(

Quintos,

Are you twins? Your posts always come in pairs.

Wolf

The term "Iberian" refers to one of the first groups of people to inhabit certain parts of the peninsula. It does not refer, historically, to all inhabitants of the peninsula. If that were true, then the Almohads and Visigoths would be "Iberian" too...we know that simply to not be the case.

The issue here is what a Basque feels that he or she is. From my experience, most Basques with whom I've come in contact, and in my own family, consider themselves Basque first, Spanish or French second. Simply labeling them "iberian" or "hispanic" doesn't make them so. Perhaps more appropriate would be to say "subject to Spanish/French rule". For better or for worse, that is the most appropriate label. Please don't try to fit the square Basque peg into a round minsomer of a hole.

Mmmm, following that kind of reasoning, I have decided that I'm madrileño first and then spanish (or just madrileño). Madrid was not populated by iberians nor by celts, but by a mix of them: celtibers.

Also we were not colonized by the romans because Madrid didn't existed at those times. Madrid was founded by arabs, so we are something different. We have also our distinct dialect of spanish: the cañí, which we call our own language.

Madrid has a different and distinguished culture. We have been expoliated by spanish kings through the history. We have been under spanish rule, but we don't feel spanish, just madrileños. We have our typical regional culture, typicial recipes (cocido madrileño) and typical dressing and dances (as chotis).

Spanish rulers have opressed ourselves as a continued tyranny of 14 centuries, from the very beginning of our foundation.

¡¡¡Madrid Libre!!!

And don't try to round the square, we are not hispanic, nor iberian, nor spanish and not european! We are an ancient and distinct culture!!!

Fernando

Holy moly I looked up Iberian and it had two def. 1. An ancient civillization that lived on the Iberian peninsula 2.One who lives in the Iberian peninsula do the Basques not match the second definition. I can tell this is going no where ClaiBasco how about you just be proud of being Basque and your opinion about your culture but I as an individual believe there is nothing wrong with calling a Basque an Iberian or Spaniard. And now for Fernando I was born in Madrid and I understand what you are saying many people on my mom side of the family were killed by Franco.So I partly agree with your statements but I considered my self SPANISH!!! first and then Madrileno second dont get me wrong im very very proud of being born in Madrid but I considere myself Spanish and since Spain is a democrazy you are intitled to your opinion and since I live in US im intitled to mine.

Quintos I was trying to be very ironic and very sarcastic, since noone in Spain would think as I have stated I was just trying to show how the same discurse of CaliBasco could be aplied in other parts of Spain, and that that does not mean it has any sense. Of course spaniards are different from region to region, of course we have suffered discriminations through the course of the history, and of course there exist different customes, languages and cultures among ourselves (iberians were not the only culture present in pre-roman times, there were celts, tartessos, phoenicians, greeks, cartagonians,...). But all these things doesn't mean at all that were are a unique, cohesive country which has centuries of common and shared history and culture.

There are more things that unite us than the ones which separate us.

Fernando

Haha, well said, Fernando.

We, madrileños, feel oppressed by Spanish governants, who force us to Andalucian flamenco, Valecian paella, sevillanas, Galician muñeiras, Basque pil-pil style cod, Catalan sardanas, Asturian cider, Cantabrian sobaos pasiegos, Aragonese jotas and other dances and food which are not typical from Madrid.
From now on, we'll only eat cocido madrileño and callos a la madrileña, only dress the typical "chulapo/chulapa" costume and dance chotis.

Recent news, Barrio del Pilar, Chueca and Vallecas are claiming independence from Madrid. As a Chamberí resident, I also want my neighborhood to be freed.

Quintos,

I do have one question. Why do so many Spaniards get bent out of shape when people from the U.S. call themselves Americans? If everyone in the Iberian peninsula would be categorized as such, why would the same people take offense to Basques saying they aren't part of a lumped together society and tell us it's wrong to feel that way here? It seems like someone wants it both ways, for their own intent.

Is this similar to the fact there are two Spanish colonies in Morocco which Spain owns, and says belongs to them, but the English colony in Gibraltar doesn't belong to Great Britain?

Wolf (Just curious. Can't have it both ways ya know.)

Ive never heard of a Spaniard being mad because an Amercian calles himself and American therefore I wont comment on that. Gibraltar ah damn Brits. I swear um you dont even want to get me started with Gibraltar bad idea..... Well lets see here Britain came to Spain to get a piece of Spain they took Gib a strategic point in the Med. Spain signed a treaty that gave up "The rock of Gibraltar" but not the sandy istmus which connects it to main land Spain therefore the Air Port is built on Spanish soild and sould be legally given to Spain. The only real reason Gib. became British is because Brits "seem" to like to claim Spanish speaking land and turn into a British territory hence Belize,Falkland islands,Jamaica,Gibraltar the list goes on and on the US had even attacked Spain for basically no reason to claim its land hence Cuba,Philipines Puerto Rico,and Guam it was quote for "Freedom" I believe it was for land and power. So to answer your question the reason Brit owns Gib and continues to own it is because of the bastards that live on the rock and because of Brit. military might the reason Spain owns ceauta and Mellila is because Spain is more powerfull then Morocco and since Morocco owned SPain once why do the MOrocans get mad when we own a piece of their counrty??????? Gibraltar is as Spanish is as SPanish as London is British no one will EVER!!!! change my mind on this never I will always see Gibraltar as a colony of British tourist.

Castiza hahahahaa my grandma and grandpa live in the Bario de Pilar.

Just in case you missed it:

Basque is in the eye of the beholder. I remember in the early 90s, with a cast on my leg, being told that doodling the Spanish flag next to the Basque flag on my "escayola" would not be a wise move, as it would incite certain indivduals and offend others. I did it anyway and was amazed at the comments and looks I got as I hobbled around Bilbao...

This is much larger than hispano-vasco relations...it's deeper than that. The Basques have been Basque longer than the concept of "Spain" ca. 1460 [see Isabel and Fernando get married, uniting Aragón and Castilla, "starting" the idea of a unified peninsula]. During their LONG history, they've wanted really nothing more than to live at peace with their neighbors, swearing allegiance along the way to rulers who pledged to uphold their rights as Basques.

Those leaders of other nations who have trampled those rights have been met with conflict and trouble [talk to Carlomagno about that, amongst others]. You'll note that when the Basques were abused by Roldán and his troops, those same troops which were given passage on their way into the peninsula, were slaughtered.

As I've mentioned before, I do not advocate violence as a viable solution to ideological differences. Unfortunately, those who have aligned themselves with ETA are poor students of history. The Basque way has always been peaceful coexistence with their neighbors, unless provoked and disrespected.

Ummm, Cali, I don't really share your view about basques...

It is true that the basque languages (since there has never been a common unified language but dozens of basque dialects) don't have a lathyn origin. And it is also true that the basques have some distinct customs, a distinct culture and so on. But...

The history of basques have always been a shared history with the rest of Spain. You can't understand basque history disregarding spanish one. From the pre-roman cultures, to the muslim occupation, then the Reconquista, and how the basques were a castilian county, then a navarre one with it's own fueros, etc...

Nowadays, no matter how thin their vindications for more autonomy are, they have the most developed autonomy of all Europe. Let's explain this statement, it is not a void one.

The region known as the Basque Country has it's own regional laws, it's own regional parlament, can manage the education, the health public insurance, the police, the infrastructures (railways, highways, roads,...), etc Not any single region in Europe can do this, nor Scotland, nor Northern Ireland (which is just asking for a parlament), nor Corcega, nor the french basques (who didn't even have their own province), nor Naples, or any german lander, or the Belgium's flamenqs, or venecians, or swish cantons, or any other culture with any single cultural sign which could made them different.

The basque nationalists are an aberration in the XXIth century Europe, and can only be understood if we think of them as what they are: provincians, people of villages who can't think in anything but their own village (this case extended village). In a Europe which is slowly becoming a federation of states there is no place for this stupidity.

If we reach a time in which all spaniards worked for the common benefit instead of against our own country, we will for sure become one of the most prosperous countries in the world.

Fernando

When I look up at the Spanish flag I dont think of just Castilla in a sense the flag represents the Basques,Catalans,Galicians etc. The flag of Spain which is basically I believe a country of unified kingdoms much like Britain but unlike Britain the recent dictatorship of Franco has "messed" every thing up. It seems as if franco attempts to unifie Spain has done the oposite and ETA's attempt to destroy Spains seems to be doing the exact oposite we have become more united against ETA. Oh yeah and what ever happened to KAS Madrid sould get there own counter-terriost unit like KAS they sould assinate ETA leaders etc. or plant a bomb where ETA is doing a metting to bomb madrid???? ok just kidding of course thats not the answer to the problem hehehehe.

This much I know about Spain: It seems as if the lack of flag-waving unity and patroitism has actually had a positive affect on the people of Spain. I have been to nine other countries in Europe and the Spaniards are by far the kindest and most trustworthy. I don't feel nearly as safe around the French, Italians, British, etc as I do when I'm in Spain.

I do wish things would settle down with Pais Vasco. They can have their culture, but what good would it do to become an independent nation? It's not worth all this terrorism, nothing is worth terrorism! I also wish the Catalans would relax their "We're Calatans!" attitudes, take themselves down a notch.

Once again though, Spaniards should be very proud of themselves. I have alot of respect for them and for their culture and I want more people in other countries to know how friendly Spaniards are. A few years ago, one of my Spanish friends showed me a magazine comic that used one "stereotypical" thing to describe each European country's people. Ya know, stuff like arrogance (French), bad food (Britons), hot-tempered (Irish), etc, etc, etc. For Spain they said, "Humbleness". I told my friend, 'that's maybe the best compliment you can give someone!'

Saludos!

Fernandito: Yeah, those "stupid" Basques who only think of themselves and their little villages. Boy was Juan Sebastián Elcano a retard for being the first human to circumnavigate the globe...and all of those idiotic Basque whalers who ended up in Greenland chasing mammals...what a ship of fools. They surely didn't give a flying fart about the world around them, did they?

I'm not asking, nor will I ever ask anyone to share my views. That would be arrogant and selfish. I'm happy to point out fantasy legends whenever they pop up, though:

Just when did Spain become Spain? No matter what date you state for Spain becoming Spain, 1492, 718, 1212, the Basques predate it. I recommend you hit the books and lay off the "weekly reader" El País. At least diversify your sources of information if you truly feel that "Spain" predates the "Vascongadas". I'd like to see the citations.

Perhaps the "geographical location" has been a shared proximity for Basques and their neighbors, but their history is as shared as France and Spain, Germany and Austria...

I'll apologize to all my Basque friends who have had no vision whatsoever and made a great life for themselves here in the US, supporting their families in Spain and France along the way, on your behalf for their stupidity and shortsightedness. Abre tus ojos, majo, y una vez hecho eso, que los siga tu mente.

Ho-hum... I sense this thread is reaching the ultimate demise of its predecessors. <tick tock>

CaliBasquito, thanks for a public demonstration on I was trying to show

Oh... and don't confuse basques with basque nationalists, it is a grave insult for them.

Fernando

PD: Juan Sebastían Elcano and Fernando de Magallanes were the first humans in cricunvigate the globe, and were doing it under a spanish flag. Sorry but the Basque Reich didn't exist at those times...

If Fernando had omited the word "always" his statement would be correct CaliBasco are you trying your best to prove people wrong for the las few hundred years Basque and Spanish history has been interconnected.

MM: Notice the fourth post on this thread...I tried to tell you...I knew I couldn't control myself.

Fernando: Imitation is the sincerest form of flatter-ito-y...and by the way, Magallanés never made it around the globe...it was his expedition, but some nice filipino gentleman took his life while in the "islas"...In order to actually circumnavigate the globe, you actually need to go all the way around. Elcano was the ranking member of the crew after Magallanés was killed, hence he gets the credit.

And please, don't be flip with your usage of words like "reich". The Basques had their own lands, own identity, and unique culture even then. Why, Carlos had even sworn to uphold the Basque fueros back in the siglo XVI. He knew that having the Basques on his side was far superior to fighting against them...something that is somewhat lost on the current regime.

Quintos: Not trying to prove anyone wrong...just making sure that all the facts are presented in order to form a more complete picture. Not everything fits into neat little boxes.

Reiteration: 1) I don't care if you agree with me or not, anyone. Not that I'm not interested in or do not value your opinions, just that my sun doesn't rise or set because you accept me or not; 2) I do not support ETA, separation, nor violence in any way (unless it involves Shakira and a larynx-remover) and 3) The information I've presented here is entirely based on personal research and fact. Since I have no agenda other than painting the whole picture, I really don't care whether you believe it or not.

Here's to coming back in a month and editing out all of my ETA posts...[you wish...]

Okay! (heavy sigh...) Seems this is all boiling down already.

SO, UNTIL THE NEXT ETA topic is started (what, in 1-2 weeks maybe?? ) let's call this one quits. I realize it's difficult for a message board to talk about Spain AND NOT discuss ETA from time to time.

Thanks for everyone's input and remember that diplomacy goes a long way. In fact, this has been one of the tamer ETA-related threads we've had in awhile.

Saludos, MadridMan