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#53258 - 11/02/02 05:27 AM Re: Franco
Eddie Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 1713
Loc: Phila., PA, USA
Wolf writes:
Quote:
Franco ... also warned Hitler that Spain wouldn't tolerate foreign soldiers on their soil.
and confused
Quote:
I don't get your point about the issue of German pilots. I believe we all agree that Spain offered sanctuary to these pilots.
Don't you detect a dichotomy between what Franco warned Hitler that "Spain wouldn't tolerate" and what Franco allowed (i.e., Rest camps for German Aviators)? rolleyes

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#53259 - 11/02/02 06:57 AM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Booklady, Eddie,

There's no doubt Franco allowed not only rest areas for Nazis, but that he allowed their spy network to operate without hindering them. At the same time, refusing to allow German troops in Spain, it was a dichotomy. I think Franco may have been one of the "Great Wallendas" in disguise - confused

When you hear first hand, about Jews who survived Hitler's wrath, like Booklady and I have both heard from people who lived in the era, it somewhat softens our view of Franco. Even if he did it because he was of Jewish descent doesn't matter. He was over 400 years removed from that culture. The fact that he did it stands for itself.

Thee's another good book, by Herbert L. Matthews, Half of Spain Died . I believe it's out of print, but I did get a chance to read it in the University of Wisconsin Library a few years ago. It's a worthy read.

Wolf

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#53260 - 11/02/02 12:06 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Wolf,
Which other non-democratic countries allowed jews in? confused

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#53261 - 11/02/02 01:10 PM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Toddy,

That's a very good question because their doesn't seem to be any I can name off the top of my head. What's even worse, democratic nations didn't let them in either. That includes the U.S.

There's one book about this that has been echoed through time. Voyage Of The Damned, by Gordon Thomas & Max Witts This was turned into a movie as well, and based on the true story of an American ship, the St. Louis, rejected in 1939 in Cuba and the U.S., with nearly 1,000 Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. These two put together another interesting read, Guernica, which is chilling. Having read both, I can say they are worth buying if necessary. If you do decide to buy either or both, use MadridMan's link, so he gets the credit.

Wolf

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#53262 - 11/02/02 03:47 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
I'm not quite sure about Franco's measure of acceptance of jews. I'm also still researching the role of governments around the world as opposed to Franco's "acceptance of jews."

My only thesis, at this point, would be Franco's pre-occupation with controlling a very regionalized Spain.

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#53263 - 11/02/02 04:40 PM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Toddy,

The question wasn't his acceptance of Jews, the question was whether or not he let them in to avoid being swept up in the halocaust. The answer to that question is, yes he did.

Whether or not that's an act of kindness, or what, it's hard to tell. Nobody has said he did it because he was trying to be a Saint. You can pick any answer you want.

If you don't believe 60,000 Jews made it to safety in Spain, that's your choice too.

Wolf

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#53264 - 11/02/02 06:10 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
the question was whether or not he let them in to avoid being swept up in the halocaust. The answer to that question is, yes he did.
How much control did Franco have of his borders to "let" them in?

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#53265 - 11/03/02 12:52 AM Re: Franco
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Good question. Perhaps it was not a question of how much control Franco had of his border, but how little control Hitler had there. One might speculate that at the time the Jews were fleeing into Spain, Hitler was busy elsewhere, the Eastern front and North Africa?
Was Hitler going to waste armies to patrol all the passes into the Pyrenees from France into Spain, when he had bigger fish to fry?

James Michener chronicles in Iberia , 1968, page 547: that "...Generalissimo Franco is highly regarded by Jews; during the worst days of World War II, when pressures from Hitler were at their heaviest, Franco refused to issue anti-Jewish edicts and instead provided a sanctuary, never violated, for Jews who managed to make it to Spain. Many thousands of Jews owe their lives to Franco, and this is not forgotten."
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#53266 - 11/03/02 11:15 AM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Booklady,
I think it was two things. Both Hitler AND Franco had bigger fish to fry. Franco needed to control and maintain a very regionalized Spain and Hitler had to fight a war. I'm still not convinced on giving Franco any humanitarian award in regards to his treatment of jews during WWII.

Should apathy be honored confused

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#53267 - 11/03/02 01:06 PM Re: Franco
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Who says Spain was regionalized? wink

During Franco dictatorship the repression against nationalism (catalonian and basque) had as a consequence that these nationalisms were inactive... until the last years of the dictatorship, in which they became very very active (and violent).

Let's also not forget that the majority of the industrial complexes created in Catalonia and the Basque Country were created during his dictatorship as a way to keep people in these two regions satisfied.

Fernando

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