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#53298 - 11/14/02 11:52 AM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
First of all:
Please, please, let`s don`t make it personal. Everybody, all over the world, lost some relative in those terrible years. Me too.
Most of the History books that I could read, and ALL the information that the media provide, are one-sided...on the allied side. It took me years to understand that the other side has never stood a chance to explain their reasons. The other side doesn`t mean Hitler, it means the German people.
This is not all, but well...I think this is growing an off-topic. Would you mind if I go on in the Non-Spain discussion? I am just starting there a new thread

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#53299 - 11/14/02 01:51 PM Re: Franco
big jamon Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 61
Loc: boston area
..."Please, please, let`s don`t make it personal. Everybody, all over the world, lost some relative in those terrible years"...

all lost some...some lost all...

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#53300 - 11/14/02 03:33 PM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
What puzzles me is why all discussions regarding Franco end up with accusations of wrong doings by others, in another period of time, making it appear that what Franco did was okay, because someone else did something else, to someone else.

Is that the defense for Franco? That someone else did something bad? Is that Spain's way of facing their own past?

What's even more insulting to some of us is the fact that most of these attacks are against what the allies did during WWII. Rarely, if ever, are the actions of the Nazis and Fascists considered, except in a back-handed way, saying, "Yes, they did some wrong too." It's as if it's a defense, and alignment with the cause of the Nazis. my God! Hitler and his people murdered 6,000,000 Jews! There is no redeeming quality to anything he did, when that is considered. Franco and his people murdered tens of thousands of people, and you'd explain it away by saying the Allies bombed Dresden? Where is there a shred of morality in using that as a defense? Have you lost sight of the fact that these people murdered their own flesh and blood, and now want to "forget about it?" That they really have no remorse, and their roots are into your present government which you defend, as if they were Gods of righteousness?

I'm sorry! Come to grips with what happened, and help these people bury their dead. Quit using diversionary tactics to defend what was done. It's the way people heal. Saying that monuments have a label, "Built by slave labor," isn't the answer. Maybe there should be walls built, like our Viet Nam wall, and the names of the thousands who died put up on these walls, so you can see their names.

It's like a tag we put on clothing made in China here in the U.S. "Made in China" I think that should say, "Made in China by slave labor. Of course that would upset people, so they don't do it, but it would be true.

For a monument, honoring Franco, the least they could do is list then names of the tens of thousands who died. It would be fitting in my mind. Not just, "Built by slave labor." That doesn't take us one step closer to realizing how many people he killed, which goes far and away beyond those he enslaved.

Wolf

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#53301 - 11/14/02 04:33 PM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
Wolf
I hope you are not insinuating that it is ME who tries to reduce the responsability of Franco (and many others) during the war and even after. I know all what they did. I got shocked when I read Southworth`s books, but I think I was strong enough to accept what they implied. It was then when I started to abandon my former conservative beliefs. It is a shame that you can hardly find a Spanish-speaking author who dares to tell what happened as honestly as Southworth did.
I would sign your post, as far as all that part about "have the grips to face the past" is concerned.
All I mean is, and you should agree as a historian, no one is better than the neighbour. I can`t accept WWII is simply something like "Hitler was the devil, and the allies saved the world". That is not history, that is propaganda. WWI was a fight for the control of colonial territories, which brought out the end of German colonial adventures. And WWII was the struggle of a certain number of industrial powers to manage the second stage of colonialism. If we start to add corpses, which is quite a ridiculours way to check who is more or less moral...then the USSR, one of the allies, would win by large. Then the nazis, I guess (God knows, maybe China was a more bloody regime). But then, I think France and the US would get quite even. The colonial wars of France (Algeria, of course, but not only) where a blood bath, concentration camps included. As to the US, you know the war in Philippines was nothing to feel proud of. Nor the support for Guatemala genocide, nor the napalm, nor May Lai, nor the money to put in power all that dictators, from Chile to Persia...
I don`t feel any sort of national pride, nor scorn any country. I am not anti-American (well, I can`t stand the English, but not even the Scots can). If I say that I feel only Asturian, I think that shows obviously how far I feel about the glories of any empire. No war has a fair cause to be started. All of them are dirty.

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#53302 - 11/14/02 07:20 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
The main reasons for this thought is that the current model of state was born with the aportations of every political force in Spain, and we have achieved a state in which liberties are respected and we can live reasonably well.

Hmmmmm, I think you should ask the Basques, the Catalans, the Asturians, the Galacians, and the N African colonies and islands.
Fernando,
I think you fall in the generation of a Post-franco education. You are not alone. Hopefully, the new generation will see ALL the truth. It's time to stop these Spanish myths; remember what I said once, "Don Quixote, that's a windmill, not an army."
Spain had FORTY YEARS of a dicator. Dictators tend to HIDE the truth. It's time for Spain to seek the TRUTH! cool

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#53303 - 11/14/02 07:26 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
WWI was a fight for the control of colonial territories, which brought out the end of German colonial adventures. And WWII was the struggle of a certain number of industrial powers to manage the second stage of colonialism.
Wolf, where did these guys study history? I can't believe this. Was this the way Franco and a post-Franco educational system dealt with the Spanish inferiority complex. Now we have a generation of skewed thinkers. WOW more study for sure needs to be done. eek

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#53304 - 11/14/02 07:53 PM Re: Franco
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Well, just my opinion of post-Franco student but:

This thread is dedicated to Franco. I felt the need to clarify that a) He wasn't just a murderer (though he was) b) He had little resemblance to Hitler and Mussolini and c) The other side of the war was equally cruel. Take this as defense of him, no matter what I say I will be taken as a son of franquism, so I will not make any effort to defend myself.

It is very easy to dig in the mud of a forgein country, but accepting that your country had also things to forget is not that easy uhh?

I think it is a lack of respect that when our opinions are not shared we automaticly are considered poor children born during the third-world dictatorship or the following democracy. You put in question my education, the press I read and even the history books I read, as if I were reading Mein Kampf to state every opinion I make.

I'm young yes, but I almost have a college degree, and I speak 4 languages. You may disagree with what I say, but please don't call me idiot, and also try not to answer just with the "you are being manipulated" cause I can distinguish when a manipulation exists.

I always argue my opinions, but I really can't stand just answers like these. Please avoid them, treat people with respect if you expect respect from them.

Thanks for understanding it.

Fernando

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#53305 - 11/14/02 08:11 PM Re: Franco
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Quote:
The other side of the war was equally cruel.
Before AND after the war? confused

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#53306 - 11/14/02 08:13 PM Re: Franco
Cristobo Carrín Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
Well, well...
God knows Fernando and I don`t share the same ideas, but this time I have to say I agree with much of his words.
Toddy, if you don`t agree with me, just tell me. And then explain me the reason. If I don`t mock the CNN, the speeches from Bush (and Condolezza, and the others) and the jingoistic, manichean way many Americans see their own history, then I don`t see why should I accept your comments about my education, my age, or my (supposed) inferiority complex.
Maybe you can explain me, since your education apparently beats mine, if the Bretton Woods agreements had any relation with WWII, or if this war was just another fight of "good against evil". If you can explain that, then you have my permission to mock my "skewed thought".

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#53307 - 11/14/02 09:00 PM Re: Franco
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Toddy,

And these are the people who have the answer to the Basque issue? :eek That's another topic that will go on till hell freezes over, because nobody will discuss the truth.

Wolf

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