My friend just got back from a business trip to Argentina. He gave me some inside information about a timetable for Argentina and the rest of the Americas (minus Cuba for now) joining NAFTA. I really believe that Spain would benefit greatly by joining NAFTA and saying adios to the EU. As soon as the EU extends east anyways, a lot of the jobs will go there because of the lower wages. Also, Spain would probably lose a lot of the money they get from the EU for agriculture. With so many Spanish banks in Latin America, Spain would profit greatly from all of the opportunities especially as the world economy gets rolling again!

Toddy writes: The 'NA' in NAFTA is an abbreviation for 'North American.' Spain is in Europe, not North America!
Maybe your friend's Argentina contact visualizes some other free trade partnership with the U.S., but it probably won't be NAFTA.

Spain and its Latin/South American partners have always maintained cordial, free trade business relationships; and that includes Cuba.

The EU has already extended eastward. Many western European working class people don't like that cheap labor coming from the Czech Republic or other former eastern bloc nations. In Germany, some neo Nazi's are taking matters into their own hands. Maybe Spain's Falange will enjoy a rebirth.

Uff... please bag this thread, for sheer idiocy. It did give me a laugh though.

My husband says " V A T P C ". He said that in Spanish, of course. And of course the Spaniards would know what that means.

Oh come on!! ( ) Let's give some serious consideration to toddy's idea. (maybe it was tongue-in-cheek ..... just as my reply is)

Afterall, Spain DID "OFFICIALLY FIND" the Americas back in 1492 (not that the "locals" ever considered themselves to be lost). So maybe as one of the "founding fathers" of said Americas, we could "Grandfather Clause" Spain INTO NAFTA! Yeah! Sure!

Hmmm.. Well.. Maybe this ISN'T such a good idea. If we did that we'd probably also have to let the British in too. AND WHO WANTS THAT!?

(Dislaimer: The above statement WAS tongue-in-cheek. My wonderful computer-geek-brother-in-law is 100% British and my nephew is 50% British and I have nothing against them OR their rubbish. )

But seriously folks, from what little I've seen in Latin America and read about it over recent years, Spain has been making a strong push for greater "rule" over the Latin American countries. Telefonica is BIG there as are, as toddy said, many of its banks. And while Spain's economy isn't much better than ours in the USA these days, things are STILL cheaper in Latin America so they're (Spain) smart to buy now while the price is low.

Who knows... in 100 years the USA might be as the states of Mexico are now and Mexico and Latin America could be THE place to be in the world. And I'm sure Spain wants to stake their claim NOW before it's too late... (or before the USA takes over. Hmph! ) Next thing you know they'll put a McDonalds in Machu Picchu's Hut of the Caretaker of the Funerary Rock and change the name of the ruins to "Walt Disney's Machu Picchu" - you'll see Mickey and Minny dancing around the Principal Temple.

Saldos, MadridMan

You are so right Madridman!
Spain has a REAL golden opportunity. NAFTA will become AFTA or whatever name, but remember NAFTA is not the same as the EU. Many people don't realize that Mexico yes poor Mexico receives more EXPORTED American goods than any other country in the world. With having a mastery of the language alone could propel Spain as a world leader instead of having to follow France and Germany and Italy and the UK all the time!

The original idea of the whole strategy was that the country will become (from business perspective) the link between LA and the EU and to benefit from that.
The idea of using that as a competitive advantage for the country was common talk in universities...some time ago. I heard myself it in a competive strategy class. The tricky point was that it was discussed when neither Spanish companies were in LA, nor Spain itself was in the EU.....(early 80's)...

It worked it seems, nevertheless Politicains a and managers are debating for the next step. Probably is a combination of NAFTA-EU agreeement plus some Spain-La country by country treaties, discussion is on the air now, because it's clear that the old model has survived its goals, already covered. This combinated with a new idea, is not said that good results cannot be achieved directing the efforts into Asia and Eastern Europe. This idea is starting to be entertained in certain circles, but it is a long topic.

As I have said time ago, I really don't see Spain leaving the EU.

Of course the USA is more than appealing in a economic point of view, but the EU is not only free commerce. When Spain joined the EU in 1986, we had a 60% of the average richness per capita of a european. Now we are at the 80%. How has these been accomplished? Of course we have had something to do there... but the most important thing is that the richest european countries (mainly Germany and France) have been giving Spain each year billions of dollars (I'm not exaggerating). With this, they gain acces to a better market in which their products can be achieved.

It would be unfair to leave EU now that we have been receiving money for 15 years...

Also, politicaly Europe gains weight by acting all together (althought it is sometimes pathetic...).

The european countries are our neighbours, no matter how well the relationship with the US is.

Perhaps a wider agreement NAFTA-EU could work...

Fernando

Fernando, remember, when the EU goes east most analysts believe Germany and France will say bye bye to Spain. Not matter how you say it,BOTH France and Germany are ONLY concered about their own citizens and stockholders. East EU cheap labor is all they need to "try" to compete with NAFTA extension. As Madridman puts, please stake your claim now!

This is not some group of illiterate peasants looking for handouts, this is a first world country and is quite capable of surviving in the EU just fine. Please go back to Mrs. William's 6th period social studies class and leave the politics to the grown ups. I stake my claim to whatever organization will shut you up!

ha! ha! haaaa!!!

go for it!!!!!

Trade agreements in and around the Americas are a dime a dozen. Here's just one source of some of them - http://www.sice.oas.org/tradee.asp It's amazing how many exist, and I think that the future will show that Spain's tremendous influence in South America, and Central America, will create an agreement that Spain will honor, and be part of, with the US, and Britain, in the future, since Britain's ties to Canada, and Carribean interests are what they are, and the US is cultivating the Americas for the future.

Of course the reason they'll seek out these avenues for import/export will partially be the fact that EU is going to look for cheap labor to the east, but it won't pull Spain or Britain away from EU. But that's just an opinion.

The difference between this "new type of alliance" goes beyond the scope of the WTO, and that's what makes it better for participants, because they can effectively shut Asia, and Southeast Asia out of the picture, creating different avenues for sales.

But all is subject to change. According to sources at the World Bank, at least one trade agreement between nations is modified every working day of the year, and at least one "new agreement," even though not officially beyond the draft stage, emerges nearly every week, creating changes that test the merits of other treaties, and makes their work extremely difficult, when it comes to weighing their efforts in many nations, and changes the balance of power that smaller nations wield, when it comes to the world economy.

Will Spain become part of NAFTA? Probably not, but it doesn't take much to change the name from NAFTA to something else to make it work. Especially since international business ends up dictating where the emerging markets are, and influence their governments to make agreements that will benefit them, even if they don't benefit the people of the nation itself. Finding cheaper labor markets outside a nation's boundaries certainly doesn't help the people. Just business. In the end, nations lose more of their industrial base, just like the US, which is no longer a "world supplier," but considered an "importer," by today's market standards. A trend most average Americans would like to see changed. We're becoming a "service nation," instead of an "industrial nation," and that bites! It only leads to less pay for Americans, as the job markets dry up.

On the other hand, it would sure be cool if the US and Spain had a great trade agreement, where we could get Spanish products without the heavy taxation, wouldn't it? After all, we keep shipping them our "wonderful products - " like McDonalds and Pizza Hut, don't we?

Wolf (Who thinks the people should decide on what trade agreements should be in place, not businesses that threaten politicians with support of another candidate, if they fail to deliver what they want.)

Germany and France aren't going to "go" anywhere...they're more concerned about their own problems with the EU than where the labor will come from. Germany faces double-digit unemployment, and France is headed there in a TGV. What they've gotten in return for the "prestige" of the EU and the "stability" of the EMU's common currency is a boatload of foreign debt they get to subsidize.

Spain is no stranger to high unemployment, but the real issue for the stronger EU economies is how they will end up bailing out the weaker EMU countries that can't wait to sign up for the common currency. Why the heck do you think the UK is "taking so long" in adopting the euro? They have such a high GDP, and are more tied to the US economy than the EU economy, that by joining the EU and the EMU, they'll end up subsidizing the "Club Med" countries (Italy, Spain, Greece, etc.) who waved bye-bye to heavy industry long ago and decided to put most of their eggs in the "come visit and spend $$$" basket.

On second thought, let's do close this thread. It is silly.

CaliBasco [Who only likes it when the euro is low!]

CaliBasco's evaluation of the situation in both France & Germany is accurate. France never wanted imports, just exports, and Germany's unemployment rate is so high the government's asking business to support the German economy at this time, not look for cheaper labor markets. Of course, as time goes on, this may change. But, for now, it's going to remain as it is, and the battle has just started between the German workers & their employers, as to wage levels, and benefit package changes, that will make German products less costly, and more attractive on the world market.

I too appreciate a weak Euro. With the rate where it is now, a trip that would have cost $2,000 a year ago, would now cost nearly $3,500. I think I'll wait for it to go down, so I can get more bang for my buck the next time I hit Europe.

Wolf (Who agrees with Cali's "Club Med" reference - )

Cali, congratulations on your 1000th post, of which I imagine 950 said something similar to "lordie lordie did you graduate high school?" or "not another ETA post... I'm going to throw myself off the pier..."

Sorry folks but Germany NEEDS workers. An educated East EU would suffice. Also those Spanish hand-outs would probably decrease, as many EU economists point out.

As Latin America emerges, investment will increase. The US is heavily involved already in Latin America, as is Spain. Far more than any other two countries. My sources tell me that Aznar/PP, Fox, and Bush ARE working on a way for Spain to enter NAFTA. Whether you like it or not, there will a new trade agreement between Latin America, Spain, the UK(wolf you're right)and the US. And NAFTA, AFTA, SAFTA, "a rose by any other name will smell as sweet."

Asterault: I hadn't even noticed even though I knew I was close...your evaluation of my posts shows that you've read them all. Thanks for your support...

CaliBasco [Who is always right, really smart, and incredibly humble]

Smells like a load of rosy BS to me.

My sources, however, have heard that the Klingons are very interested in a free trade agreement with Spain, however are still mired in internal debate that they looked different on the old TV show and the new one. Said Klingons, actually, have a long standing claim on Ceuta too, countering the claim the big ear guys have on Gibraltar.

Aster,
When you don't have a good argument to make you resort to mocking the person. Hmmmmm, I remember a simpleton guy like you in my Jr. High Social Studies class. He he he.

Well, I guess, as far as your concerned, the US can just put in a bunch of Starbucks in Latin America while you sit back on your cafe chair and watch the world move on buy some simpleton thought.

Sorry, but the times and the trade groups are achangin! Get on before it's too late!

oh, and don't end with me, why don't you mock Madridman too for his views. (Boy, some people really get in the way of me trying to like Spain)

Ok, it ends with me. .. and a neutral thought...

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plains...or at least that is what we hope for this year with the drought going on.

MM, can we close this thread now please?

I'm sure you're a nice person, but you've presented nothing but rumours and heresay, which don't merit much value. I doubt that such information would be dispersed through a travel message board and not have been leaked by the news media before -the EU took the better half of last century to set up, NAFTA quite a few years too, and these agreements are quite complex. My basic point, and don't take it the wrong way, is that neither you nor I have the qualifications to evaluate, in a non trivial discussion, Spain entering into a free trade agreement with the NAFTA members. Unless you work for NAFTA or the EU, then sorry and I wish you all the luck with your negotiations.

Also, your views don't really reflect an understanding of Spain or the Spanish people. The Starbucks and Franco references I didn't quite understand, and if people want to be "anti-American," that is their choice, to which you may counter their arguments, hopefully more substantially than you have in this thread, along the lines of how Wisconsin Wolf (how's that plumbing installation coming?) will do so with logical posts.

-L

Asterault,

We got the outhouse moved inside, but what do you do when the basement gets "full?" I'm still in a quandry over that!

Which reminds me (A reach here, to stay on a Spanish topic) - Are you officially in Madrid yet, or still hanging out on the beaches of Barcelona wearing sandals, a thong, and big smile? I looked at your web cam, at the office, and saw a guy with a bad hair day, named Stefan. I think he uses the same barber as I do - That can't be you! I didn't see dog hair all over him -

Wolf (Who has to head for the flea dip now, so he can quit scratching behind his ears - :o )

Ah, that's what you use for the kitchen garden -makes the tomatoes extra ripe! Even in Pennsylvania we know that. You guys are rubes!

I'm in Madrid, or more precisely I live in a town near Madrid. The cam page is out of commission as that office camera is where I no longer work, and the home cam is no longer where I live.

So how are we supposed to keep track of you without video surveillance?

At least we can follow Wolf's "movements" [I can't believe I said that] by checking with purchasing in the Departamento de Fontanería de Home Depot de Sheboygan...

Again Aster, you refuse to debate the issue. I think you don't understand Spain's future in the EU. You can keep your head in the sand as long as you want, I just hope there are enough Spaniards who DO understand the world marketplace. (come on madridman, speak up, you know what I mean about the economic positives and you know that I'm speaking both from my heart AND my head)
Even though some people on this site are anti-American and love to bash the USA, I still try to like Spain and KNOW that the clock is ticking for Spain to make a stronger presence in NAFTA. The last agreement signed was in Quebec by ALL(minus cuba) the Americas countries. Come on Spain, the EU will not in the end, take care of you.

I still have to see that anti-americanism and the bashing of the USA... 80% or more of the visitors of this site are even americans or british (with some from Sweeden, Portugal, Canada and Australia), and the rest are spaniard who, moved by the interest of exchanging points of view with americans, or just to know a little more from the american people, visit this site...

Anyway, let's center on the topic: Your only evidence is that you have heard it from a friend, haven't you?

I don't say that it is impossible (it would be even desirable from my point of view), but I think it is very very improbable. That is not the way the things are done in Spain. If tomorrow our president Aznar would say "Spain is going to leave EU and it is going to join NAFTA" then all the political parties, the trade unions, the media and the common people would call him mad.

If I was to bet, I would bet that Spain is not going to leave EU in the next years. That doesn't mean that we will not join something like NAFTA, but I don't think we will in the near future.

Would it interest the USA? No... Spain is poor compared to the US, it is not a big market for its goods, nor the handwork is cheap. Besides, would the USA want Spain to bee its backdoor for inmigration?

For Spain it would be great of course: A big big and wealthy market to which export our goods, a place where the wages are 50% higher, freedom to go there and study in the best technological colleges... A good bargain for us

Very improbable...

Fernando

Again, correct, I refuse to debate the issue. Why doesn't some board administrator bury this thread in the sand?

I'm leaning that way too, Asterault. Anyone else have the same feeling?

Bury it!

Agreed! We have discussed all what is discussable... now we are just repeating the same arguments. Close it so we are not able to bore the rest of the board members :p

Fernando

Inter it, cremate it and/or bury it!!!! The sooner the better - please!

Consider it done. Have a good weekend, everyone!