Thank you Wolf!
It seems that many europeans love to bash US military actions, but when shoes on the other foot their nationalistic tendancies come to the forefront. Who cares about the worldwide fight against terrorism. Who cares about the public humilation of a "moderate" muslim country. We want our little rock back and when we leave you can't haaaaaave it. (who's the child now)

I only wanted to say that the comments made by Toddy on Spain not being a democracy for having a King along with some other of his comments are to say the least ludicrous and unfortunate.

(Toddy says "who cares about the fight against terrorism, and the public humiliation of a moderate muslim nation"); What the heck are you trying to say?, that Spain should give up to the claims made by Morocco (they dont give a darn about Perejil, they actually want Ceuta, Melilla and the Canaries), in order to the Western World to keep in good terms with Rabat?. You have to be joking.

You are just trying to provoke and anger the spanish audience in this forum and the best way they can respond is probably by ignoring you altogether.

Can a leader delete this poor "post by accident" Thanx

Daniel b: Thank you very much.

It is very curious that when I made the comparison between the situation and other military actions made by the USA you two leaped at me (even if I didn't say that I disagree with the use of force by the US army...).

Gibraltar is not comparable with Ceuta and Melilla, and I'm going to give you reasons (not a simple proclama as the one made by Toddy based on their antipathies to europeans):

1st) The soberignity of Gibraltar was never given to England, only its use. It was a spanish territory first. Half the airport of Gibraltar is built on plain spanish territory which use was allowed when Gibraltar suffered an epidemy (not in the Treaty of Utrecht).
Ceuta and Melilla have been spanish since the 15th century, in which Morocco didn't exist as a country (because they were separated nomad tribes at that time).

2nd) Gibraltar is a colony, and Ceuta and Melilla are cities.

3rd) Spain is claiming a co-sobereignity of a british colony in spanish territory, while Morocco is claiming the sobereignity of two spanish cities with the only argument that they are near moroccian territory.

4th) The inhabitants of Gibraltar would have inmediate access to british or spanish nationality, with the same rights and an wide autonomy as a territory. Morocco is a dictatorship, and spaniards living in Ceuta and Melilla would have to emigrate, or live under restricted rights.

5th) Spain is using diplomacy to solve the Gibraltar problem, while Morocco is using military threat to claim the posession of these two spanish cities, and other small islands of the north of Africa.

As I have said before, the problem is not an unhabited island. The problem is that they were occupying it and at the same time they were pointing to Ceuta and Melilla as the next targets.

The same way you two feel that the USA can use a legitimate force against some countries to protect your people you should allow other countries to do. Or do you two think that the only country which may use force in a legitimate way is the USA?

"As for Spain's "close relationship" with Muslim nations, you can say "adios!" to it. If you step on the toes of one Muslim nation, you make a certain amount of enemies in each of those states, and you can count on them backing Morocco in the end."

That is your opinion, but you show you have some gaps there... You have obviously not readen the Algerian reactions to the issue (do you think algerians are happy to have 150,000 saharauis in their territory because Morocco forced them into exile?), you have not readen the libian and tunisian offers to intermediate, you don't know that the european representative in Palestina is a spaniard, or that the spanish contacts with the arab countries are important.

However, I'm glad that your current government does understand the situation. 5 hours after the invasion of the Perejil Island the spanish government said: "We have no intention to have a permanent detachment in this island, we will leave it if Morocco guarantees (because they violated the previous agreement) not to occupy it again." Colin Powell has given such guarantee, and by now the spanish forces have leaved the island.

You may continue to throw your frustrations with europeans and spaniards, I will try to continue to asnwer with arguments

Thanks for reading!

Fernando

<yawn!>

History confirms Leila islet is Moroccan territory, testimonies
Morocco-Spain, Politics, 7/18/2002

Several Spanish historical documents and testimonies evidence that the Tora or Leila island is a Moroccan land which has for long been the object of colonial covetousness, said Moroccan historian Hakim Ben Azzouz.

Ben Azzouz recalled in a statement to reporters that in 1746, King Fernando VII gave instructions to draw a map of the islet but that the mission entrusted with the undertaking found out that the islet was not a Spanish land.

In 1751, the governor of Sebta attempted in vain to take possession of the islet, as his attempts were foiled by the combative Anjra tribes, the historian said.

He added that the British government repeatedly requested from Sultan Moulay Slimane in 1799, 1801, 1802, 1803 and 1804 an authorization to build over the islet the residence of the British General Consul, settled then in Tangier. All these requests were turned down.

In 1808, the King of Spain dispatched a squadron to help Morocco liberate the islet after it had been occupied by the British governor of Gibraltar.

After the islet was liberated in 1813, it was the object of requests in 1814 and in 1831 on the part of Great Britain which wanted to set up there a coal storehouse to supply its boats sailing in the Mediterranean. Similar requests were again made to Morocco by the United states in 1835 and by Great Britain in 1841.

During Moroccan-Spanish negotiations in 1860, Spanish military, led by General O'Donnel, wanted to extend the borders of Sebta to the islet, but Morocco rejected the proposal.

On November 13, 1887, the Spanish ministry of public works erected a small enclosure on the islet and planted the Spanish flag. The same day, the Sultan's delegate dispatched few soldiers aboard a small boat and the enclosure was destroyed and the flag handed to Spain's general consul.

Geographer Cala Galiano, head of the hydrographic department at the Spanish navy ministry, published on November 22, 1887 in the paper "Epoca" an article evidencing that the Leila islet was indeed Moroccan land. On December 3 of the same year, the Spanish Prime minister, Moret, made an unambiguous statement at the House of Representatives, that there was no doubt the islet was Moroccan. He reiterated the same statement before the upper house.

The paper El Correo noted in its release dated January 1888, that it became crystal clear that the islet was Moroccan and that there was no document at the (Spanish) foreign ministry nor at the consulate of Spain in Tangier evidencing the contrary. The islet is well and truly Moroccan and sentry guards were deployed there few days ago, the paper wrote.

After he mentioned all these chronology dates, Ben Azzouz said it is necessary to underscore that Spain which has never occupied the Leila islet had amazed everybody on February 26, 1986 when it disclosed a draft bill on the autonomy of Sebta extending the city borders to the islets of Badis and Leila. Morocco protested the draft and conveyed the protest to Spain's embassy in Morocco on January 5, 1987.

And my dad can kick your dad's ass!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!! Now THAT'S funny! Thanks for lightening the heaviness of this topic, Asterault. I got a good laugh out of that.

Fernando (et. al.), what Asterault said is a childhood saying we have here in the USA when there's nothing left to say in the heat of an argument.

Too funny. TOO funny. Saludos, MadridMan

Cheers and Salud Astersault!
I toast some good(which is all of it) Spanish wine to that!
At the end of the day, we can all be amigos!

A statement from the Spanish government's office was released shortly before the troops were withdrawn. "Spain and Morocco have reached an agreement over Perejil Island that means a return to the status quo," it said.

"The government of Spain thanks the U.S. Secretary of State, Colin Powell, for the work undertaken to facilitate this agreement."

Your welcome!