Did anybody from this msg board attend yesterday's gay pride parade? Wow, it must have been huge! I was supposed to go to the 'campo' to a village called Buitrago de Lozoya to be exact for a 'merienda fresquita' with friends (it's in the Sierra de Madrid which is definetely cooler than the city), and the pre-parade atmosphere was such with so many streets closed to the traffic, etc... that we left two hours later than planned! (So we had dinner at Buitrago instead, mmm! great food, by the way!)

Also, I wanted to comment on Chueca's neighborhood ever since last Thursday, because I was so nervous (or rather anxious) needing to be on time for a party that, of course, I HAD to take the wrong bus (the one that took the longest time to get me home by far!) and on it crossed the street Fuencarral at "turtle speed" as we say here. I don't know if the fact that it was "Gay Pride Week" had something to do with it, but what a fascinating experience!
It was around 8PM and the street (in the middle of Chueca) was packed with of all kinds of people coming and going; trendy young people, classy old people, very pretty girls (Spanish and foreign), BEAUTIFUL men (sorry girls most of them gay!), fun stores, g-string wearing go-go dancers in a window-shop....in other words, lots and lots of happy-looking people, it reminded me of a livelier and a little less muti-cultural London Soho.
I was really delighted and entertained so it was worth being a little bit late and miss some Thai apetizers....

Unfortunely I couldn't go this year because I wasn't in Madrid. I've been before the last two years and it's a great fun. I hope they get soon the rights they claim for, specially the marriage right. I think the support of PSOE and other political parties and unions and the interview of Zapatero in the gay magazine Zero have been a great step.

"Marriage right"...hmmm...shall I completely open the can of worms that has been left ajar just at arm's reach? Hmmm...no, I think I'll just let it go.......

Well, I am very glad to have missed GAY PRIDE in Madrid. I don't support gay pride day at all.

Why should I be proud to be gay? First I am a human being, then African-American, then and individual, then gay. I don't put so much emphasis on my gayness at all because I know that it is a part of me and I feel that I don't have to flaunt it in front of everyone.

Let's look at this from a logical point of view. When gays prance around in women's clothing, tight pants and act like women, what will the straight community think? Yes, we all deserve rights in this society, but why are we begging the straight community for these rights? Why don't we just live our life and move on?

Like I said, I am gay and I am just trying to live my life to the fullest. I refuse to jump on a bandwagon and support something that I do not believe in. I don't like watching men in drag and I certainly refuse to marry anyone. But hey, that's just me.

Shawn

Shawn: Now that's a viewpoint that makes sense! I was never quite sure what a bunch of kooks in drag had to do with being gay either!

i would have gladly attended pride in madrid had i been there, and next year i certainly will. i don't know about where you live, but here there are all kinds of festival/parade type things. there are ones for irish, greek, mexican, catholic, lutheran, polish, etc.(all something-american), and i don't think that's there's any problem with celebrating.

all of these things have an effect on our lives and are part of who we are. being a part of a community that is not always considered acceptable by everyone doesn't mean that we should hide. pride week is important because the rest of the population has a chance to see how many people are glbt etc. or support people who are. the more visible we are the more people get used to us being here. and if we choose one week a year to do that i don't think that's too intrusive.
there are all different kinds of queer people and not everyone agrees, nor do they have to. (pardon, if you find that word offensive, some people do, but that's how i describe myself) i agree that it doesn't help break down any stereotypes to have guys in g-strings and drag, but where do you think those stereotypes came from? if that's all that are brave enough to go, then that's what people are going to think we're all about. i know tons of queer business people, and even a lot of republicans. not everyone is a drag queen. but if the guys and girls in normal clothes don't show up, all that anyone will have to remember the event will be the queens and kings.

I'm with Eli. It is not about man dressing as women, but about making the rest of society aware that gay people exist and they have rights too. And I think it is very fun too

I agree with Eli too. I'm not gay but my friends and I watch our Pride parade every year. It's a blast! For every float with dancing drag queens there is a float for a local business with normal-dressed people on it. Politicians and TV/radio stations are in it too. There are even parents of gay kids who march with their kids in support. I think our parade is the largest pride parade in the country, so we even have national sponsors like AT&T, Showtime & big Grocery store chains that are in it. It's more of a celebration than a demonstration. Everyone in the parade looks like they are having SO much fun. Good music too.

The question really is whether the Gay Pride parade is intended as a "show," or if it's intended to "show of unity." From what I gather, it's original intent was to show unity. If that's the case, it seems to have evolved into something far beyond what the organizers intended. Since the media only looks for "sensationalism" to broadcast, the majority of the world sees something that reminds them that they might not want to be too much of a liberal. If that's the message you want to send - be my guest. If it's a message that lifestyle preferences should be accepted by others, toning down the affair might make a lot of sense. In my opinion, that's exactly what Shawn was saying, and it makes a lot of sense.

Now, if going out and creating a three ring circus is your bag, be my guest. Just don't expect the majority of people to do little more than laugh at you, and say dumb things like, "What do you expect from a bunch of queers?" You're doing nothing more than creating that type of ammunition for bigots to use, and that's counterproductive to your mission.

Can you imagine if Christ and his Apostles found their way over roads with two members acting like circus clowns? They would have drawn a lot of attention, but people would have walked away laughing, saying they were a bunch of fools.

Wolf (Who's already indicated in another post, he don't like raining on anyone's parade.)

I have many gay friends and attending the pride parade shows my support for them. I enjoy the day and get a kick at all the floats. there is such a sense of community at our parade here in S.D.. ONe year some activists actually bombed the parade with tear gas and I was about 100 feet away! It was terrifying! I was outraged at the whole thing. But everyone wiped themselves off, and the parade went on! I think we were even more unified that day after the attack.
Anyway, I just wanted to comment that whatever your bag is, drag, leather chaps, Banana Republic uniform, every group in society has its subgroups. I'm Hispanic, but not a chola from the barrio, I don't get in their way, they don't get in mine. Know what I mean?
For what ever reason some prefer to parade around in amusing costumes, but if that is how they express themselves, then I say, let them have fun!

p.s. I think this topic is ripe for the new NON_SPAIN DISCUSSION BOARD.

Well I was on the parade, as were most of my friends, gay and straight alike. Pehaps the use of the word Pride should be looked into. But remember that's a term coined in the US and adopted, maybe unthinkingly, by other gay communities around the world. Of course I'm not particulary proud to be gay, after all it didn't involve much effort on my part, but then again people often use the word erroneously – proud to be American or a New Yorker, for example when this was most likely an accident of birth. The pride as in Gay Pride refers to being proud to express your orientation publically when many sectors of society are less than tolerant. That does take some effort, I think.
Nevertheless, the use of the word pride is dated and smacks of the 70s. This does not undermine the need for such marches. Remember, authorities rarely, if ever, give rights to those who demand them without a struggle. The women's suffrage or civil rights movements come to mind.
So there certainly is a need to take to the streets to fight for equal rights. And that's what the march in Madrid was about.
Rights for same-sex couples, whether you wish to avail of them or not, is hardly something to object to, is it?
Finally, I support anyone's right to dress how they want.

I am not against man dressing as a woman, it's not just my cup of tea and I , personally, don't consider anyone in drag entertainment. Remember, this is my own way of thinking and many will disagree with me, and that's the beauty of life.

As I have stated before, for me, there is no pride in being gay. Why?

What I would look for gay "pride" day to be is a series of conferences to help educate the public about issues that concern us and to push some important agendas to the forefront, but alas, it will never be.

Let's see how this discussion turns out.

Shawn

You cannot talk to me about a struggle. I am African-American and there is no way to compare the struggle of gays to the struggle of any other major group. Many people try and make this comparison and it is on two totally different scales.

Shawn

Only 25 years ago, one could go to prison for a sexual act in Spain. Less than 10 years have passed since one could be jailed for gay sex in my native Ireland. We've come a long way since then of course, but mostly thanks to people fighting against repressive legislation. That for me is a struggle. Admittedly there are degrees of struggle, but I never entered into that. I merely said that it's important for all people to fight for what they believe should be their rights.
Bringing the debate back to Spain, I do think the gay /lesbian community has a realistic list of demands on the agenda, and until the government recognises at least these very real concerns, people should continue to lobby, whether it be behind the scenes with politicians, or out on the streets. And in varying states of undress, drag or fetish gear. Rights are for everybody, not just those who conform to the sartorial norm

Barry - your post of 8:30am stated the issue perfectly.

And as far as dressing in whatever and as whatever, tradition in the Bay to Breakers race in San Francisco has an anything goes attitude for all persuasions - and that race is over a 25 years old.

And now - back to Spain ....

A very interesting thread indeed. I do agree with you for standing up for your rights and struggling. I don't have a problem with that at all. Race, unfortunately, still rears its ugly head in the US and that WILL NEVER GET OLD.

I am just a gay person that doesn't agree with everything that gays fight for in society. I don't care about maritial rights for gays, because I have no interest in marrying another man. Once again, that's just me.

No matter how hard you try to keep this topic just on Spain, it will not, for Spain is just a tiny speck in the universe, just like all countries we are born in. One will always use his / her home country to help solidify or disagree with a point made about another country.

It doesn't surprise me that just 25 years ago, people were thrown in jail for being gay. Many worse things have happened to people in the past. When the human mind starts to decide what's right and what's wrong and wicked, hateful people get into power, just watch out. We have seen this before and it certainly isn't about to stop now.

We also have to realize that many people who are against homosexuality base everything solely on the bible. Bit as we know, the bible was translated and many things get lost in translation or the translator could've even put his on spin on things. Who knows? But what we do know is the here and now and what people say is evil about homosexuality.

For me, it is natural to be with another man and if people don't want to be bothered with me because of it, to hell with them. I have been doing a lot of things on my own and rarely depend on the acceptance of other people to validate what I do in this life. I am a loner and enjoy my alone time.

Who knows? One day I may meet someone, but until that day comes, I will bask in the glow of my solitude, travel and visit Spain again.

Shawn

Like many other posters here, I find myself at odds over "Gay Pride." On one hand I agree that anyone has the right to celebrate themselves...on the other, I think Gay Pride is cast about (sensationalized) to others in a manner that disparages us.

In my travels and interactions with many different people, though, I've been reassured that individuals truly accept their fellow humans. It is only the most hateful that conjure such inhumanity.

What many in the world don't understand, though, is the struggle that persists. Personally, I am being forced to leave my home country. My Mexican partner (of three years!) can no longer extend his tech visa, and will have to move back to Mexico. Because I can not sponsor residence for him, we either split or I move south to Guadalajara. I am moving to Mexico.

I feel the need to fight my nation's conservative immigration laws. Conversely, this move will give me the opportunity to become fluent in Spanish, and allow me to experience the grace and hospitality of Mexicans.

How does this fit in with Spain??? I can tie it all together by predicting that Spain will afford equal rights to gays before the United States. Most nations in the EU already extend immigration benefits to same-sex relationships. Many Americans (the whole continent) look to Europe and the UK with a mixture of envy and inspiration.

SRedW:

I can completely respect your opinion on all of this, but I can't help but wonder how you can say that you don't care about marriage being legal, that you have to desire to be married to a man. Don't you think that maybe one day you might find that person and want to be married? And don't you think it would be nice to have a choice?

ladoque: right on.

SRedW:

I can completely respect your opinion on all of this, but I can't help but wonder how you can say that you don't care about marriage being legal, that you have to desire to be married to a man. Don't you think that maybe one day you might find that person and want to be married? And don't you think it would be nice to have a choice?

ladoque: right on.

Is there REALLY any point in a gay pride day? Its like saying "Hey everyone, look at me! I'm Gay!" Why not have a hetrosexual pride day, or maybe even a bisexual pride day, because that's how ridiculous it is! Gay people say they want to be accepted into normal society, yet they are alienating themselves by having these festivities.
I have a lot of gay friends, and they don't go yelling about their sexuality to all and sundry!

Yes there really is. And no there's no particular need for protests of a similar nature for heterosexuals unless you feel your rights purely as a heterosexual are being denied. Secondly, heterosexuals don't need to shout out "I'm straight" since you're generally presumed straight until proved otherwise, or they find your collection of Judy Garland records. Visibility is an important step in the gay rights movement. When the government realises how many of us there are and that we can't all fit back into our closets, maybe they'll think of all those votes they have to court.

barry: Couldn't agree with you more. Many, many people (straight and gay) think these events only showcase the extremes. In many ways, yes, the drag queens and leather crews are the most visible. If one were to look deeper, though, they'd realize that to many people the celebrations still represent the continued fight for equality, liberty, and respect - to be proud of one's self, and not ashamed.

Besides, having a good time is healthy!

Eli,

I don't ever see myself exchange vows with another man in a ceremony. That's just not me at all. I don't even want to live with my better half, if I ever find one. I value my personal space highly and don't want anyone to interfere with that at this point in my life. I am on a mission in life right now, one which does not allow me to be sidetracked by falling in love and making a life with someone else. If that means that I will be alone for the rest of my life, well so be it. I want to realize my dreams and aspirations in life first before beginning a relationship. I refuse to give into the way society says that we need to be in a relationship with someone.

As far as marriage being legal, it's not my cup of tea at all and I REFUSE to do it. If other people want to, let them. I won't try to stop any gay couple from getting married at all. I just don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone in that way. I just don't believe that marriage is the ultimate way to show your love for someone.

Hope that answers your question and if you have more, please don't hesitate to ask.

Shawn

JJP, your following comment

is so true. And I think this applies to all facets of life, not just the gay rights issues. Europe, in general, is far more open-minded and tolerant socially than the U.S. despite enclaves of strong liberalism in this country.

Unfortunately, this is very true.

Unfortunately for who??!! Only joking. I gather you mean for US citizens. Anyway, good luck catching up. I'm looking forward to our first Madridman board gay wedding. If I ever get round to it, you're all invited. I'll post the Hermes wedding list...

Why a gay pride parade? Why don't they have "straight pride" parades? Because EVERYDAY is straight pride day. We constantly see heterosexuals kissing and holding hands in public, on TV, movies, etc. Gay pride parades are an opportunity for a sexual minority to have their voice in a world that doesn't always welcome it.

Siento que este asunto no tenga nada que ver con Madrid

To all of those who want to say that this post doesn't have anything to do with Madrid, go back and read the first post and you will see that it does have everything to do with Spain.

Homosexuality is everywhere and if it's a subject that you're not comfortable talking about, please don't participate in the forum.

Thanks,

Shawn

It's my understanding most participants on this thread have been quite open-minded. The only negative remarks have been in regards to the "extremes" of Pride.

Barry, I totally agree that gay people are treated unfairly and as second class citizens. One of my friends is too ashamed to tell his family and friends about his homosexuality, because he is afraid of how they would react. I don't believe there should be any need to feel afraid, because I say that it is LOVE that is a natural thing and whether it be between two members of the same or opposite sex, it is a beautiful thing.
I stand by my feelings about gay pride day, but maybe that's because I'm orig. from a quiet village and know no different than subtlety. However, I would not rule out attending a parade in the future, after all I should really find out what its all about. If it attracts so many people.....

[censored], what a fuss about the topic if gays or straights should have their own prides... Maybe in the good old days where the old queens 'n hags are talking about the idea was to show your pride, leting the big mean world know who you are... Nowadays there's still something left of that spirit, though I don't think it's the main thought... Spaniards, and especially those in Madrid, will take every oppertunity to celebrate anything, to have an awesome party!

Unfortunately, I wasn't there (but hey, I saw the Amsterdam gay parade, jejeje) but my friends have made a video so I won't miss that much (I can't even believe my own words here...) Next year better!!!

I just want to say a quick 'brindis' to SRedw for his mature and logical approach to the whole thing. you are a compliment to the gay cause.

Also, Calibasco, i think you are responsible for possibly the most hilarious posts on this message board! you rool!

how can the 'gay pride parade' post NOT engage the political aspect..?

i am also glad to have missed that parade. i have total respect for individuals that are gay. i don't need to be reminded that they exist. heterosexuals exist too, right?

i have a problem with anyone that flaunts their sexuality in public, male, female, slut, gigolo, pimp, whatever. if two men want to hold hands, big deal. same with two women. if they want to peck each other on the cheek, big deal. just don't go tonsil hockey on us in public, gay or hetero. involved demonstrations of either are equally tacky.

so how does this parade support or promote equal rights? i'm sure it does nothing but perpetuate stupid stereotypes that many gay people would like to be rid of.

whatever the result, i do believe that many people want the gay community to feel like they are equal but don't think a parade is the best way to demonstrate it. i have gay friends that do agree (ok, two gay friends that agree).

awaiting the onslaught...

andrew
:wq

Andrew,

Thank you also for such a mature response. I think that people who have to flaunt their sexuality should get a hotel room. Now, you can imagine the number of gays who think that I am crazy because of the way that I think. In Madrid, I saw many men who flaunted openly that they were gay and it was such a shame to see. It made me cringe because I don't know of any woman who acts or walks in that manner. I've asked many of my female friends why they don't walk like that and they said that it makes their back hurt.

All in all, I am comfortable with my sexuality and feel that it isn't a major part of who I am to determine my way of living life.

I found that Madrid was more open about being gay. When I move back in January, I will still miss the GAY PRIDE PARADE because I choose not to be a part of it.

Shawn

Shawn,

trust me, i understand the barrage of contention that would/does come your way when you stand tall to your argument. i suppose it's that way with many of the age old debates; politics, abortion, religeon, etc...

i think the parade supporters are probably in the majority, but with good examples like yourself, and a couple of dear friends of my own, maybe more respect can be created in this harsh world.

¡viva españa!

andrew
:wq

Andrew,

Thanks once again. This thread stillhas a long way to go, but at leat there are level-headed people on this message board.

Shawn

I think Shawn & Andrew addressed the issue very well. Taking pride in who we are as an individual, regardless of lifestyle, politics, race, nationality, or religion, can be done with dignity and grace. It sends a message to everyone that we're not all that different after all.

Wolf

Indeed, "Pride" is no longer serving the purpose it once did.

Unfortunately, those who feel threatened (in the US it's usually the Christian Fundamentalists) by the concept of full equality for homosexuals use select images from these celebrations to justify their regressive dogma.

Being that most “homophobia,” or negative views towards gay men and women, is based on misunderstanding - and not irrational hate - a more sophisticated way to educate would be helpful. Many people are starting to realize these "Pride" celebrations may not be accomplishing their intended goal.

Regardless, important for heterosexuals to understand "Pride" still functions as a mechanism for many gay men and women to articulate themselves as legitimate members of society. To stand up, in full view of the world, and let it be known who they really are … not conforming to old societal standards.

Unfortunately, particular images are often misinterpreted and used by religious zealots to justify their belief gay men and women should remain second-class citizens. And it's not hard to understand how this tactic is mildly successful when most decent people (straight or gay) have no tolerance for public displays of sexuality.

In my opinion, it's time to move on and find better ways to educate the world on why gay men and women should be treated with respect and dignity, and afforded equal treatment in the eyes of the law.

Exactly ... there are more sophisticated ways to demonstrate equality. As it stands, Pride celebrations usually alienate most individuals who are indifferent on the matter, and cast gay men and women as crass, promiscuous, and deviant. Obviously this is not true, but when the world only sees scantily dressed individuals parading down Main Street ... well, it sends the wrong message.

If you can cheer gored bulls gladiator Ole style, why not cheer some proud gays no matter their dress.

All I can say is OLE [censored]!

Live and let live

Dear toddy:
As far as I am concerned, the Spanish slang word "[censored]" is a derogatory term for "gay". If you're gay, then maybe you can comfortably say such things but know that I still don't appreciate the term. If you're not gay, then I suggest you try a little harder to be more PC here in our forum. Thank you.

Sincerely, MadridMan

Apparently, toddy is MadridMan's resident troll. In another thread it tries to insinuate Basque Spaniards are bred to terrorize.

Hey, it always helps when one's true colors emerge. Exposing one's real character and motivations certainly makes it easier to discredit these Internet pests.

Sorry Madridman,
I had no bad intention. I have many dear "gay" Spanish and American friends. My point was just to say "live and let live." (which is VERY pro-gay). THESE are my true rainbow colors!

"Apparently, toddy is MadridMan's resident troll. In another thread it tries to insinuate Basque Spaniards are bred to terrorize.

Hey, it always helps when one's true colors emerge. Exposing one's real character and motivations certainly makes it easier to discredit these Internet pests."

Madridman, I find this very very untrue and offensive!

JJP, i find it interesting that you are so brazenly pointing fingers at those who are allegedly threatened by gay 'pride,' namely the 'Christian Fundamentalists.' is that a rock band?

instead of perpetuating the same finger pointing game that gays so often endure, why don't you simply ignore the evil christians (i say this facetiously)? really, tho, just ignore them and do your own thing. don't you know that example is the best teacher? people, in general, do not respond well to 'in-your-face' tactics.

it sounds to me like you want to force your own morality on others just as badly as many other prolific groups want to force their own collective moralities on you. i can see your agenda a mile away (or lack thereof).

sorry, but i'm just taking this opportunity to defend yet another group that is persecuted in this world.

Andrew
:wq

PS> Madridman is the board owner and moderator, so let's not take justice into our own hands.

And on that happy note, consider this yet another CLOSED TOPIC which turned out to be.. well.. not too pleasant.

And now, on to other topics which make us glow with happiness, allowing us to experience Spain in our minds and in our hearts.

Saludos, MadridMan