I've been reading this thread and biting my tongue - but feel I have to throw a few comments in at this point - my 2 cents worth? Nuria, Fernando, Espe3, Cali, Shawn, and Miguelito as well as taravb and Wolf have all mentioned a couple of things - healthcare and EDUCATION. Both are available to all Spanish residents - and the education is mandatory through a certain level. The fact that the Gitanos so often CHOOSE to not send their children to school speaks in and off itself for a desire to be part of the society.

We all known I'm a 'flaming liberal' - but I have to agree with the statements that, in the main, the gypsy in Spain (and possibly elsewhere) does NOT want to be a part of Spanish society - with all inherent the benefits and responsibilities. By depriving their children of education (for whatever reason they do so)- the isolationism becomes a perpetual and self-breeding problem.

In Granada a gypsy girl came up to me and started to tell my fortune,.. that i was pretty, intelligent and going to have many babies- 'give me some money'! to which i replied, 'You are prettier than me, obviously intelligent and richer than me' and i held out my hand. It pained me to do that but the facts were true she was prettier, intelligent and richer. I CHOSE to have cereal for breakfast and lunch, just so i could travel more. But this is my 'choice' and i don't impose it on anyone.
I'm grateful for all the links and suggestions made by all members, and i now have a curious need to read up on the subject. Thanks Tara and others!
However Taravb, I don't believe that by describing my pot pourri origins, how well i am educated, or how many and who has a doctorate has anything to do with anything. I am not in your class, with your rules, to learn what you know. Everyones opinions should be respected. We are simply Miche, Tara and others one and the same. if a little
-Miche

There's not much I can add to this debate, but it's a long time since I read such ill-informed venom against a group or culture. Thanks Taravb and Wolf for injecting some sanity into this thread.

For petes sake! Nevermind, i think its best I bite my tongue.

Tarvarb, I for one would miss your contributions to this board. I think all of us ,who have been posting on this great site for some time, have seen highly charged topics alienate some of our community members. Sadly, it can be difficult at times to distinguish between ad homineum attacks and those against altenative points of view. I feel quite strongly in my opinion of the gypsies, of course my beliefs with respect to them have been influenced by my entirely neagtive contact with them. Your more positive view of them, without a doubt has been shaped by your own personal perspective. Given that your husband considers himself Roma, it is understandable that you have reached a different conclusion. Please recognize that denouncing gypsy culture and their behaviour is quite different than defaming people of Roma dissent. I hope that you rethink your decision to leave the board.

BTW, I should have placed qualifiers like "most" or "many" when I refered to gypsies. I regret that I can´t put the toothpaste back in the tube.

tarvarb, this board wouldn't be the same without your contributions. I can see how you've personalized this discussion, though. Hopefully, you'll stick around here. I don't participate that much anymore, but read the board often. Stick around - you'll be missed!

If this dicussion were to stay focussed on the particular members of society (in Spain), and from a factual point, much could be learned. The flip side to all the generalizations (thievery, no value on education, instability..) is all the culture that has originated from the Gypsies. Depending on one's exposure and experiences, this sub-group of Spain's society could be looked at in differing ways.

What has happened here happened a few months ago on the ETA forum...and I'm still here.

Tara, this board is like the Hotel California: "You can check out any time you'd like, but you can never leave." I trust we'll see you back posting on "10 Favorite songs" or "Why I eat paella" in short order...

I like what I'll call Tara's Tricks for Tolerance: I hope I've followed them, and I've kept the ones I see as most relevant here:

We will try to understand and explore both sides of each issue. I don't think this is happening in an open way. Please, everyone, if you're going to get involved and "unbite" your tongue on something emotionally charged like this, prepare to either not take things personally or to truly look at both sides. Nowhere here does it say you must agree.

We should not blame ourselves or other people for the misinformation we (or they) have learned. I haven't, and I don't.

We should not repeat misinformation once we have learned otherwise. I haven't, and I won't. About the skirt issue, I simply heard it, asked you what you all knew, and accepted your answers as gospel. Thank you.

We will assume that people always do the best they can in the situation at hand. I will respectfully agree to disagree on this point, specifically with regards to this point, as facts have been irrefutable on this with regards to the Spanish Gypsy population.

With that, I'll leave this forum, but unfortunately for the rest of you, I've no intention of leaving this board. And Tara, I'll be in MN this fall and plan to swap stories over tapas with you and yours at La Bodega if time allows...don't think you're getting off that easy (or hard as the case may be)!

Hi everyone! Just thought I'd give my thoughts on this. I am a direct descendant of the romany "gypsies" (so called because they were originally thought to be from Egypt, but are from the Afghanistan area). The most famous romany family in England had the surname Boswell, which is my nan's maiden name - her dad was born as a traveller.
Nothing to do with the angle of the subject, but I just thought I'd share that with you! I'll go and slink back to my corner now...........

Hello everyone. I'm jysuper. The one who created this topic. My original intent of posting this topic was to get feedback from people who've been to Spain and encountered the Gypsies. I understand that they're people too but the ones I saw were rude and cursed at my group when they didn't get what they wanted. I didn't mean to offend anyone but I wanted to spark some debate. I've enjoyed everyone comments. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Be blessed.

Thanks for tying it all back jysuper...I only hope that we can all realize what you said: That we're each entitled to an opinion. With such a hot topic, there's bound to be controversy.