Prejudice

First let me say that I am an American white female of European descent.

After a rather unpleasant incident in Spain and after reading through this thread (as well as other articles on the problems faced by North Africans in Spain), it would be easy for me to assume that prejudice is fairly widespread in Spain, if not all of Europe. That's not to say we don't have our share of it here in the States. Our own brand of black vs. white or “people of color vs. white” is well known by all. I know in my heart of hearts that most people want to “get along” and prejudice is just a form of ignorance. However, prejudice is still an ugly thing.

The incident: My husband, a Chinese-American man, was heckled by a large crowd of pre-teen/teenage Spanish kids as he walked by them in a tourist area last Thursday in Spain. I wasn't present at the initial “event,” but my husband was EXTREMELY upset by this, and I must add that he usually doesn't let ANYTHING (even clerks at stores who ignore us because of our bi-racialness) bother him. We needed to walk past them again to get to a location we wanted to visit, so I just assured him we would deal with these kids. As we walked past them again, sure enough, they started shouting derogatory remarks about the “chino” man. So I turned around and YELLED at the top of my lungs some “choice words” (not many, not that bad) I knew in Spanish and Italian. They backed off, but it was an EXTREMELY unnerving and upsetting experience.

Let me say this to you: UNTIL YOU EXPERIENCE PREJUDICE FIRSTHAND, you have no idea what it feels like. That's not to say that I have experienced this all my life. I have not, but since marrying, I have experienced much in the way of prejudice and mistreatment because of my choices. I don't believe anyone should be persecuted in any way based on the color of their skin or the way they choose to live, especially if their way of life doesn't affect anyone else. I might add that I have been rejected by some individuals in my extended family for my choices. Before my married life, I like many of you, thought “people of color” (including blacks, latinos, Asians) were overreacting and exaggerating their problems when they complained about things. Believe me, they are not exaggerating. I am not what you would call a “flaming liberal” but rather middle-of-the-road (left of center) in my beliefs. So I wasn't prepared for what I have experienced over the last decade. As white people in a predominately white culture, you have it EASY!

PLEASE, don't judge the Rom (gypsies), the North Africans, South Americans or anybody else by everything you hear/see about them in the press, the message boards, etc. They are a group just like all the other groups out there with their own way of life, problems, individuals among them who are good and bad. They may not wish to conform, but don't believe that they want to live in squalor.

As a member of the Gypsy Lore Society [no I'm not a Rom/gypsy], I have to tell you that most people know very little about the Roma. Generally, they are viewed one of two ways: Romantically, where they seen as living a carefree life, and dance and sing for us to provide a diversion. Criminally, where they are viewed as the scum of the earth and steal everything, from jewelry and money to children, and live like animals. Neither of these is accurate. It would take a lot of space to begin to tell you what they are all about. If you really want to learn about them and change your way of thinking, read some books on the subject (although many of them are not 100% accurate either; remember most are written by non-Roma and present what they perceived as “outsiders”). Begin by reading some articles or books by Ian Hancock, a Roma of academic standing, who has written extensively on the plight of the Romani people. He states, “…Roma have been the victims of slavery and genocide, transportation and torture. No other single human population has endured so widely and so consistently the suffering of the Rom. At first incarceration, then expulsion, sterilization, and finally extermination were techniques employed by the Nazis to deal with Gypsies…” ** You can easily access some of his articles at the Patrin Web Journal: www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
His book The Pariah Syndrome: An account of Gypsy Slavery and Persecution is available as a used book on Amazon.com

**Note on Ian Hancock: Of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, Ian Hancock represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).

To sum up: We all have our prejudices, but recognize them and try to change or at least become more informed about the people you know little about. Yes, I realize some of you have lived near gypsies, but you haven't experienced what they have. Don't make assumptions.

As for you tourists who want to “understand” the gypsies. Read and learn about them, accept that they are there, but don't encourage those who are leading a begging life. Don't give them anything, and don't confront them.

And now for a few Facts:

Did you know….

Entertainers of note who have claimed Romani ancestry include Yul Brynner, Charlie Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Michael Caine and Bob Hoskins.

The Roma originated in the Indian subcontinent; their language has roots in Sanskrit.

Roma were the only other population besides the Jews who were targeted for extermination on racial grounds in the Final Solution. The latest (1997) figure from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Research Institute in Washington puts the number of Romani lives lost by 1945 at "between a half and one and a half million."

According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, an estimated 903,000 children suffered maltreatment [including forms of sexual abuse] in the United States in 1998 or 12.9 per 1,000 children.

And finally, I must say that for the most part the people of Spain were courteous and cordial and, other than what I have recounted above, we enjoyed our stay there.

And to tarvb I commend you for standing up for the rights of minorities.

Very well put, tcc. Prejudice is unacceptable on any level.

Regarding the Gypsies, it would be helpful to better understand their culture, behaviours, and lifestyle...if judgement has to be passed.

Unfortunately, much of what I've been told (about Gypsies) involves parents failing to ensure their children are educated. According to friends from Andalucia (and have taught there), many Gypsie families pull their children out of state provided education. Many of the men also don't work, but force their children and wives to "provide."

Not very honorable...

Just something to add on, because I'm not sure all the americans know.

In Spain the health care is free (though some gypsies pay for their own private health insurances). The education is also free for poor people, and it is obligatory. The gypsies have decided not to scholarize their children, forcing them to ask for money in the streets or pickpocketing (only a 20-30% of gypsy children go to schools). The college is almost free, and for poorer people there are economical and financial aids.

When a worker looses his/her job, the state provides him/her with a monthly salary for months or years until he finds a new job.

When a worker reaches the end of his working life he has the right to earn a monthly salary for the rest of his life (that depends on how much he has worked in his life). There are other discounts for the elder, as almost-free transports.

Also, if a worker suffers an accident that keeps him from working, the state provides him with an aditional monthly aid.

When a youngster wants to buy a house, in the case he has no resources, the councils, autonomic governments and statal government provides him with a house for quarter or half of its value. In the case of gypsies I have seen whole blocks of houses built and given to them for free.

These are common rights for every spaniard, included the gypsies. The have chosen to exercise only some of them (as the health care).

Which bothers me much is that you say that the problem is that the common people in Spain marginalize this group. I have seen countless times efforts of our society to integrate them, it is true that they suffer some kinds of discriminations (as parents keeping their children away from a school with gypsy kids), but never violence or verbal insults.

Why? Because it is them who are menacing and violent with others (even themselves). You will never see a non-gypsy calling "¡gitano!" a gypsy.

In know I'm not going to change your minds Tara and Wolf, but if in some point of your life you come to realize how the gypsies are in reality I hope you remember all these pieces of information.

Facts (not second hand stories): I have seen gypsies kick out poor people from the entrances of commerces, from their preferred corner, or from the best traffic-lights (in which they could earn more money).

I have seen gypsies offering to wash the front glass of your car, the driver saying no and they throwing soap and dirty water to the car.

I have seen gypsies robbing the purse of a 65 years-old woman and pushing her to the floor.

I have seen gypsies robbing the radios of the cars by breaking the glasses.

I have seen gypsies asking for money to drivers in Castellana, and when the drivers gave them coins, throwing a coin (of much lesser value) inside the car and asking for more money.

I have seen gypsies camping in public parks, in the backyards of hospitals.

I have never seen moroccians, equatorians, center-africans, ukranians, dominicans, colombians or any other inmigrant to do such things... and the gypsies are not inmigrants!

You won't convince me of how marginalized they are, and how bad I'm for not liking them. That doesn't mean that I want any bad for them. What I would wish is that they could integrate in every society they live in.

Tara: Your point of view is as respectable as any other. And sincerely I value it since you are discussing with the general opinion

Best regards.

Fernando

Well, leave a forum for five minutes...

I was the one who asked for thoughts on the skirt "wive's tale". I never implied that this was the case, I just wanted to know what was out there. Geesh!

I have a couple of suggestions for those who want to reference others' works. Please post a website link, not the unabridged version of the original treatise...my browser got tired scrolling through all that! :p

Please note that the word "prejudice" has to do with judging another before you know the facts or have primary information sufficient to form your own opinion based on that primary information.

With that as a premise, it is clear that neither Fernando nor Nuria are "prejudiced" against Gitanos. They have obviously lived with the Roma as a very visible part of their society much longer than most, if not all, of us on this board. I can speak for those who live in Minnesota and California when I say the Gypsy populace is scarce at best...even in LA where there is a definite presence.

Don't confuse prejudice with simple disagreement on an issue. Fernando is correct when he says we are all entitled to our opinions. What we are not entitled to is to bash, belittle or hate someone else due to theirs.

I truly believe that each side is correct on this issue, but I also feel that unless you've really lived in a situation where Gypsies are an everyday part of our existence, you can only speculate as to what you think is right or proper based on your own paradigm. Everything else is just an opinion of how you wish things were, and we all wish they were better for both the Gypsies and the Spaniards.

Sorry about the lengthy excerpts, Cali, I know they are a pain! I just have enough experience with trying to post links on my own webpages to know that links are ephemeral, and felt that it was worth creating a more permanent record, for future visitors here.

I fully agree with your definition of prejudice. And I agree that the Spain-based (we should all be so lucky!) posters here have more experience with Roma populations than me or most Americans.

But to say that an entire group of people don't want to improve their lot in life IS pre-judging them. Have the people who say that been in the homes of Gypsies as they discuss their hopes and plans for the future? Have the people who say that they don't want to send their children to school been with those children as they have struggled with language difficulties or been ignored by other children (we know children can be very cruel)?

Until the people who claim that they don't want to change reach out and make the attempt to invite them to participate fully in Spanish society (and, as I said before, this will be REALLY HARD at first, because neither side trusts the other), they ARE, by definition, pre-judging them.

When one futbol team must play at a great disadvantage (say, for example, they all were required to donate blood one hour before each game), and consistently loses...then those who call them "losers" are prejudging them. Give them a chance to have a fair game, and if they still lose, give them another chance (to be sure). Then you can decide if they are losers are not.

Tara,
Your last line, even you aren't seeing most of what we're saying.

They DO have a fair playing field. They are entitiled to healthcare, education... nobody can go to school FOR them! If they choose to use it, then good! But the facts are, that more often than not, they don't. And because of that they aren't the only ones that have to live with that choice.

If they weren't given the right to education or healthcare, then you'd be right, it wouldn't be fair. But they are.

I still say that they can live how they see fit. If they want to change that, then cool. If not, fine, but don't impose your choice on me. I'm not going to give money out just because someone asks me for it. If you're hungry, I'll buy you a sandwich, if you don't want it, then you can't be that hungry. Wouldn't you agree?

Here's the deal, folks. I teach a class at the University of Minnesota on child development and social policy. At the beginning of each semester, I hand out a list of ground rules for discussions. Here are some of them:

6. We will try to understand and explore both sides of each issue.
7. We should acknowledge that racism, classism, sexism, and other forms of oppression exist.
8. We should recognize that the perpetuation of “-isms” has much to do with misinformation about both our own group and members of other groups.
9. We should not blame ourselves or other people for the misinformation we (or they) have learned.
10. We should not repeat misinformation once we have learned otherwise.
11. We will not “blame victims” for the condition of their own lives.
12. We will assume that people always do the best they can in the situation at hand.
13. We will actively pursue information about our own group and other groups.
14. We will combat myths and stereotypes about our own groups and those of other people.
15. We will create a safe atmosphere for open discussion.

This thread has moved SO far away from the ground rules I would like to adhere to in any discussion that I can no longer participate in it. I don't feel safe, I don't feel accepted, and I feel strongly that the racist views expressed here have no place in this message board.

My husband is a descendant of Roma. He's not a criminal, or a drug dealer, or lazy. His grandfather, whose parents came to this country in the early 1900s, worked his entire life to improve his family's circumstances. His father has a doctorate in educational psychology. My husband has a doctorate in child development and is the director of research for a nationally-prominent child advocacy organization.

If you want to continue to spread racist messages about my husband (and hence my daughter), go ahead. If you want to believe that he and his family are the ONLY exceptions to the nonsense written here about Roma not wanting to improve their life circumstances, go ahead. But I won't stay to listen to it.

This has soured my feelings about Spain, about the message board, and about many of the people I had felt were becoming my friends here. I think I have to quit.

Best of luck to all of you. May you never be on the receiving end of comments like I have heard here.

What it is a pitty is to personalize a rational and calm discussion taravb. You are accepted, your opinion is valued, strongly valued because you are expressing it almost alone.

Moreover, noone has told you "your opinions are wrong, you don't have any point". Noone has insulted your husband nor your daugther. We were talking about gypsies as a collective IN Spain (and guessing it of what we have heard in Europe). Who knows if I have gypsy blood? Would I be insulting myself by talking how a current collective behaves?

Now you call us racists, that is indeed an insult, and a personalization of a discussion.

In a discussion both parts should respect the other opinions, and be fair by not trying to personalize the discussion (this is something I have learnt in this board).

I'm very sorry you have come to this point

Fernando

Hope you don't leave us Tara, I find your comments very interesting. I also have found some comments a little bit rude and maybe racist.
First of all two points:
1.I think this is a cultural conflict more than a racial conflict.
2.Gypsies are also Spaniards, you can talk about gitano-payo, not about gitano-español.

Now, as you said I think there is a big unknowledge between both groups and also about reality. I also don't know much about them, but I would say the following. Leaving apart the Romanian gypsies, I would say that all the Spanish gypsies know the language perfectly, I would even say it's their main language. I would say than 100% of gypsie kids go to school. The socialist government began a program of positive discrimination with gypsies, so the family would receive a economic help if the kid went to school (other families with the same economic problems wouldn't receive the help). Since then, there have been progressions with the integration, it's being very hard, and there are a lot of problems, but things are a bit better now than they were when the program began, so there's a progress. I would say that nowadays there is no Spanish gypsie kids begging (except some special days like domingo de ramos). There's a minority that go to university and work hard for their people.

About the houses it's true that many of them get a free house instead of their 'chabola', they used to live in bad quality houses made by themselves in campaments they formed in lands than they didn't own, so the government decided to make flats for them to give them a healthier living in pro of integration. Unfortunely, they were used to another kind of living and didn't adapt well to these flats. Many of them had hens or worked with 'chatarra' so they needed a little bit of land beside their house. Now, many of them have adapted to live in a flat, although they always try to get a free flat.

It's true that many of them have made good bussiness with drug, the guettos where many of them live are a good place for selling the drug to the end consumer, but it's also true that they don't own the ships which do the big drug traffic. It would be like saying that all the people from Cadiz or Galicia are involved in drug traffic or contrabando.

I think we the government have to continue helps and works for integration and the knowledge of both groups ... they abuse of helps, but I think the integration is possible and that this is the only way.

Sometimes people make the mistake of thinking assimilation is integration. It isn't. Being able to have one's own ethnicity is important. It's as important as being allowed to live within their own religion. By stereo-typing people, we cause them to draw closer together in their own communities, and withdraw even further from society as a whole. Integration really means that an ethnic community can survive, and flourish, within the whole, of an integrated community, and society, where prejudices are dealt with as being unacceptable. As for the word, "prejudice," it is basically the same as "pre-judge." Don't fool yourself into believing it isn't. It can apply to individuals, or groups of people, for whatever reason you choose to apply it.

Tara's points are not generalizations, but specifically target stereotype casting of people, and the injustices that causes. Instead of attacking her position, a person who says they believe in human rights should embrace what she says, and try to find solutions to the problems. If we don't, as individuals, and as a society, we've missed the very opportunities we have, to make a difference.

Wolf