I just returned yesterday from Madrid back to Vancouver, Canada. I was also in Barcelona. A beautiful city I must say. But I was in shock in Madrid!!! I've travelled all over western and eastern Europe as well as the Middle East and Orient. And I must say, the standards are so low in Madrid, I was appalled to say that this was a 1st world city I was in. The standards were like those of a third world country. Here's a few of my examples; the tapas bars: Dirt from food, bones, shells, and napkins under the stools. I read the Madrid people believe why clean up several times when they can clean up once at the end of the day. Disgusting I thought! Also the washrooms in public places. No paper is expected as I always carry my own tissues, but what about no soap, no water, and flooding floors. What about the dog situation there? Here in Van. if your dog poops and you don't scoop there's a fine up to $5000. I sometimes missed the sites because I was afraid to walk into poop and get it clogged in my runners. Talk about filthy. People just let there dogs do their doo in the middle of the sidewalk! The streets are filled with garbage. I was at a huge carnival for the Patron St. Isabella 2 nights ago and I never saw so much garbage in my life. After Bingo, people just tossed their losing game sheets on the street. There were very few garbage cans anywhere. Well all I can say is that it gives the city workers, whom you notice plenty of in those neon green uniforms a job. I won't even go into the details of the garbage on the streets after the crazy people heard that Madrid won the big soccer match 2 nights ago. I was a near riot. Tear gas, scratched store windows and people sitting in the middle of traffic on the ground in a row boat style, screaming at the top of their lungs. Hope to hear others opinions on this. And no offence to anyone, it's just MY opinion!

I think you must have caught the city at a bad time.....the event you're talking about was the Real Madrid fans celebrating their victory in the UEFA cup and they usually mass in central Madrid to do this (Cibeles). I have been to Madrid several times and I have never thought of the city as being dirty.... quite the opposite in fact. I remember being amazed that they came out late at night to hose down the street of the city centre - something I wish they'd do where I live. I must admit I was shocked on my first visit to see the floors in bars etc covered with rubbish but it was explained to me that they clean this up frequently... why place all your rubbish on the bar counters or tables when you can chuck it on the floor where it will eventually be swept up? It makes sense to me. I think the Spanish are as good as anyone else at cleaning up after a big event and I reckon you must have passed through Cibeles before they had a chance to get going on the rubbish the Real fans let behind.

I would not let your initial impression put you off Madrid .....do come back and try it again and I garantee you'll leave thinking differently.

I will restrain myself just say that 6 million people together make a mess, and that I find Madrid cleaner than Rome or New York.

I had to laugh at this part. This is usually the thing that MOST "outsiders" find most repulsive whereas I find it one of Spain's most guarded treasures. I LOVE THIS CUSTOM of throwing napkins, bread crust, and shrimp heads towards the trash can located under the counter. Most times they miss, but the floors are swept clean about once an hour depending on the establishment.

Spaniards take GREAT pride in cleanliness. How often do you think a typical restaurant in a "FIRST world country" sweeps their floors? Answer: once a day if that. And how often do you see manual street sweepers in the US in the streets, sweeping the streets and picking up litter by hand? Almost never. It's true, Spaniards tend to litter more, I think, but they clean up more often too. How often have you been to a hotel in the US and found the tub/toilet/bathroom dirty? You'll almost NEVER find this in Spain.

Sure. Spain and other countries are different in many many ways. We're not all the same (thank god). But let's not get a superior attitude over those whom have standards DIFFERENT (not better or worse, but DIFFERENT) from our own.

alabina, I'm so sorry you didn't have an enjoyable time in Spain (or maybe you did??). I'm sure there are many other places in Europe or the world which would make you quite happy. So cross Spain off your list and move on to the next one. Try to keep an open mind towards those countries, their economies, and the peoples therein and also consider their situations, lives, and challenges. Try to see things from THEIR perspective as opposed to your own and you'll learn and appreciate much more. Enter a new country/city/culture with your eyes & mind open and not shut.

I've visited your Vancouver, British Colombia, (in fact, my brother-in-law lives there now and soon so will my sister) and must say I have NEVER seen a city SO neat and clean in my entire life!! You are truly living in a bubble there. I was tempted to have my afternoon meal on a manhole cover in the middle of an alley! Really, this place is SPOTLESS. I imagine city government spends multi-millions to keep it looking this way. Vancouver is SHOCKINGLY clean and I'm not just saying that to sharply oppose your comments about Madrid.

Thanks for your feedback. Happier Travels! Saludos, MadridMan

I have to agree with MadridMan about the custom of throwing napkins and other bar debris on the floor. I don't mind it a bit, and have found that most barkeepers do sweep more often than once a day (imagine if they didn't--the stuff would be more than ankle deep!). And of course any city will not look its best after a massive celebration.

That said, Madrid can sometimes be a bit messy (paper in gutters, etc.) but, as you said, there always seems to be someone "on patrol" cleaning up. And in other cities, you'll see somewhat cleaner streets--in Salamanca, for example, I have watched them hose down the Plaza Mayor after a busy evening (ever seen that in American cities?) and it's not unusual to see a little driving vacuum-cleaner meandering through the streets there (it looks like the Nuu-Nuu from the show Teletubbies, a bit). There are more trash cans in other cities too--I think Madrid has far too few!

Vancouver is certainly a pristine city (and the parks and flowers--amazing!), but I wouldn't rank Madrid on a normal day below any other major city in either the US or Europe. The bars are another matter--but it's just a custom and one I can't imagine anyone's inclined to change!

So watch your step when you tiptoe through the shrimp heads!

I think that we are really not perfect...

It is a shame for Madrid that someone thought that Madrid is not a clean city, no matter how other cities are.

The dogs issue is a shame, and you are right alabina...

Perhaps all this stuff has something to do with the fact that we live outside doors and do not value the cleansing as much but no excuses. For me it is a shame.

I hope the next time you came here you don't find again the same dirty city.

Fernando

Many years ago, my wife and I were discussing the same subject about cleanliness, in regards to another place which will remain unmentioned. We decided at that point that there were two types of dirt.

There's the dirt we make ourselves, and find acceptable, and the dirt someone else makes, and that's not acceptable.

It has nothing to do with whether or not a place is dirty as much as it does what we are used to seeing every day, and accept as being just another part of our landscape.

In this case, I think that's what actually is being discussed, but it's hard to realize it, because we are all accustomed to things in our own little worlds, and what we see around us may be very different in other parts of the world.

A good example which actually relates to sound, is that people living near airports rarely even hear the sounds of jets, wherein visitors to their homes find the noise annoying, and distracting.

So... when we travel... we have to learn to accept these differences, and realize the conditions we see probably are no worse than what we see at home... and ignore.

Wolf (Who's going to wash his hands now... I noticed a grease spot on my computer keyboard... one of my kids used it! )

Wolf, your comment about noise pollution from jets hits home here in South Minneapolis, where we hear jets flying directly overhead all the time. We have become accustomed to it, as have many of our neighbors...we will stop conversing outside for long enough for the planes to pass over, and my husband even did a taped evening news interview "between planes" in our front yard the other day! The reporter is also from South Minneapolis, so it was no big deal to him either!

Your "my dirt/your dirt" distinction certainly holds up in our house...and in many cities too, I suspect.

I still love the messy bar floors, though I would never consider invoking the "5-second-rule" for dropped food there like I would with my own floors at home!

Tara,

I love your reference to the "5 second rule," which all of us probably live by. If we didn't, we probably wouldn't eat half of what we do... I also understand full well what you mean about the planes. It becomes second nature to us.

I too found the customs in Spain different but not offensive, and to be honest, I've always enjoyed going in "peanut bars" here in the US, where we dumped the peanut shells on the floor, after shucking them to eat. In a way, it was "different," and not a health hazard, so why not? Because of this, I think it was easy for me to accept the differences in Spain. They certainly aren't dirty people, and I always marveled at how receptive most people were in following the rules where they didn't take their garbage out to the dumpster until after 10 PM, and the fact that the dumpsters were emptied early in the morning, to insure they weren't hanging around as a fly attraction.

I've had people tell me how they thought it was "gross" when those beautiful jumbo shrimp were cooked, and served to them, complete with heads, and all... To me it wasn't a problem, and I got pretty good at snapping off the heads, and getting the shells off... you had to, if you wanted to enjoy that great delicacy, because nobody would stop eating to feel sorry for you...

Dogpiles are a problem in Madrid. I guess we all know that, but it certainly wasn't something that ruined my day, or made me feel that the city wasn't clean. Like anywhere, there are those that will violate the law, just like the turkeys back here, who have to throw empty bottles, cans, and garbage out their windows while they travel along a scenic road.

In many respects, I wish Americans would show as much pride in their cities and towns as Spaniards do. We have this tendency to bleed everything we can from our major metro areas without giving a nickel back towards making it a nicer place to live or visit. It's hardly a message I like sending to people in other countries.

I have mixed emotions on the public restrooms in Spain. Some are very clean, while others are terrible. But if I was to grade them against what I've seen in the US, I'd say the US gets a "C" for condition, while Spain gets a "C+." But, I do think alabina could make points on this one, because I've never seen cleaner rest rooms than in Vancouver. I'd give them a "B." It takes a lot to get an "A" in my scale... an awful lot.

Wolf (Who's looked those shrimp in the eye, and told them they were going down!!!! )

Travb & Wolf...try F-16s flying over your house every day! Still can't get used to that one!

Nevado,

Been there! Done that! They sure are noisy buggers when they pass by real low. I'm afraid I still dive for cover when I hear them... complete with yelling out "Hit the deck!" to anyone close enough to hear.

I can remember one time when the sound of jet fighters was the sweetest music I ever heard. That was back when I was young, and in Viet Nam. Had it not been for them... I'd probably not be here today.

Wolf (Who has a love/hate relationship with low flying fighter planes.)

Wolf,

For some reason I KNEW you'd come back with that...

In Bilbao there are some streets where there are a lot of bars and are big party areas. There are nowhere near enough bathrooms for all of this and so everyone pees all over the place. It´s pretty discusting, but early every day (4-5am?) city workers come out with hoses and wash everything down and clean up the area. Suring the day it is a vibrant shopping area and you would never know what happens there at night. My point to all of this is that people may make a mess but they clean it up.

When I lived in Madrid I always thought it was a very clean city especially for the size. "Madrid Limpio y Verde" is a slogan I remember seeing quite often. Compared to many large cities in the U.S., Madrid is pretty clean.

Alabina,

you missed the part where the cleaning crews hit the streets early in the morning or late at night and not only *sweep* the streets clean, they *SPRAY* the streets vigorously with 'firehoses' in order to round up all the debris.

also, the floors in the tapas bars are swept up several times a day by the barman, until it gets too busy to tend to.

the dog doo? i totally agree. there should be a special dog-log patrol that stares down pet owners *AS* their pets are dumping to make sure it gets picked up and put in the trash. two reasons i wouldn't have a dog in madrid anyway; a.) i don't wanna touch dog doo (even thru a glove), and b.) it's cruel to keep a larger dog locked up in a tiny madrid apartment.

but from what i've heard, very few places in the world can be compared to the cleanliness of Vancouver... lucky you!

The truth is the truth even if it hurts, Madrid is getting very close to a garbage dump. From the cig butts, broken bottles, urine stench in almost all quarters, prostitutes, graffiti, drug addicts I would have thought I was in downtown LA. Buuuut, in LA there are more air-conditioners.

and Wolf, dirt is dirt no matter how it's Spainly Spattered

I say, if you come from a clean city in the US and want to visit Spain and have better chances of a positive experience, check out Barcelona. It is like night and day from Madrid. All your loves aside madridman, Barcelona is the best representation of Spain!

toddy, sorry, I beg to differ with you, but to me Barcelona is a better representation of Europe and not at all of Spain herself.

To me, REAL Spain is in Castilla and Andalucía. Just ask any Catalán if THEY think they're more like "Real Spain" and they'll either slap you or throw a number of 4-letter Spanish words your way. heheehehe.. They'd rather be anything but "Spanish"!

Sure, Barcelona is cleaner and prettier. I agree 100%. But, at least to me, it's not at all "Spanish". More FRENCH than Spanish if anything, I'd say. Sorry. I usually keep this opinion to myself, but... I just had to do it this time.

DID YOU SAY FRENCH!!!!!!? Ouch, that hurts ( probably for a Spaniard even more)

But seriously, Madrid is fast losing it's mythical "Spanishness" in the rapid first world Spanish modernization and all the problems associated with the process; whether we like it our not.

If I were you, I would bring your girlfriend here, make some money and buy a vacation home in Madrid. I know A LOT of Spanish women (many teachers) who fell in love with American men over the past ten years. ALL OF THEM, at first, wanted to go back to their idealized childhood "Spain." Some of them even tried to go back. Every Spaniard had to face the present reality that Spain will never be like their youthful vision again. However, all of them now are enjoying the best of both worlds: good paying jobs in the US, great living conditions, and unas espanolas childhood suenos on vacation in Spain.

Uh oh! The catalanes have gotten to Toddy first!

Toddy, its a shame you aren't able to open your mind more. Madrid may not be the cleanest city in the world, and I've never been to vancouver, so I can't compare. However, I HAVE traveled quite a bit and just as so many others posted, its different. Madrid however, is NOT the filthy cesspool you seem to think it is. The kids and their Botellones is the biggest issue, I've been a part of that group, but always making sure to clean my mess, as well as a a good deal left from other people. I don't know where you were hanging out, but Prostitutes? Come on, you'll find that ANYWHERE you travel around the globe! As far as the doggie doo... well we're not ALL like that! My aunt even caught a woman walking her dog down our street who let her cocker spaniel do its stuff and was about to walk away when my aunt (yes, 100% spanish, and 100% from Madrid) called her on it. The woman said she didn't have a bag and my aunt offered one to her, even walked outside to hand it to her! So you see you've got responsible people and not so responsible people. I've seen PLENTY of americans just let their dogs go anywhere and pick up after them even less! the biggest difference is, in the USA most neighbourhoods have yards and people are so considerate to let their dogs poo in a yard that's not theirs, and you can't see it as well BECAUSE its grass.

The bars and clubs. Give me a break. There are PLENTY of places in the States, and yes, Canada too, that don't bother with paper (everyone in Spain knows this, and if your friends from there didn't warn you, well, most of us just know, its BYO (bring your own!)... it just runs out anyway, and too many stupid drunks end up using half the roll and clogging up toilets that lead to flooded floors...that will happen anywhere you go. If the flooded floors were the norm though, again like with the prostitutes, WHERE were you hanging out?!??!?!I agree with the water issue though. At least give me water!

Barcelona.. MM is right, its not SOOOOO spanish. Do we need to clean up more? Well, with the street cleaners and everything else I think the city is pretty good about keeping it up and tidy. You may not agree, and that's fine, but comparing us to a third world country, I think that's not only pushing it, but find it very offensive. I've seen yards in the united states where people seem to think a broken down rusted car is a lawn ornament, but I'm not going to say only go to Washington DC to appreciate the USA- that would be absurd and narrow minded of me, now wouldn't it?! There is no one true place of any country that will show you all there is about it. Some places are only more popular or easier to get to than others. Barcelona is a very beautiful city, and so is Madrid, you can't compare the two really, they are night and day. But just like New York, I like it with the good and the bad, it gives it character. Personally I don't like to be so sheltered and don't want to live in a 'perfect place'- I can visit Disney World for that! That's just MY opinion.

Hello alabina, you have been in Madrid during the fiestas, that's why you have seen so many garbage, there is so many people together in the same place that the town council prefer to clean it at the end of the day better than making an special effort to avoid it.
Normally Madrid is not an example of clean city but is OK. The cleanest town of Spain it's suposed to be Oviedo (the 2nd cleanest of Europe I think)

I think it's interesting that MMan wrote:

"toddy, sorry, I beg to differ with you, but to me Barcelona is a better representation of Europe and not at all of Spain herself."

HERSELF? I guess that means you consider Spain femenine (Gee! I wonder why, ha, ha! ). Good!

About Madrid's dirtiness, I agree on the following issues: the cigarrette butts, and the dog's "little ornaments".
However I think from somebody coming from the "New World", the mere fact that many parts of Madrid are OLD (buildings, streets, etc....) can give the general impression of carelessness.
Of course reflecting on it some may argue that in the US or Canada one can also find buildings just as old as mine, for instance (over a hundred years old), and that's true; but my point is; can you find in NorthAmerican cities old streets so narrow that were clearly meant only for pedestrians, since not even carriages could circulate?

About the prostitution, I second the question: Boy, where have you been hanging out???! Like in most European cities, there are just a few very specific places where you can "see" any of that: the street Montera (near Puerta del Sol), the Casa de campo (shameful!), the (street)Capitan Haya area, and I've been recently told there's some "high-class-prostitution" in Fortuny street. That's it! (as far as I know).

Barcelona is not French at all. Barcelona is Catalán, and therefore Spanish. Castilla, while generally associated with things Spanish, represents just one part of a pluralistic country with differing customs and cultures, such as Galicia, Cataluña, Asturias or Navarra, etc.

If you compare Barcelona and Madrid, yes Barcelona is cleaner (well, relatively), but Barcelona has 3 million people and Madrid has 6 million. Philadelphia is cleaner than New York but it also is half the size. I think any city, once it gets to a certain size, is just dirty because of how many people are there.

I think Asterault is right... Barcelona is a catalonian city. One of the best spanish richness is our diversity. But MM is also right, Barcelona has french influences, much more than Madrid (which also has! or do you think that Napoleon did nothing here?).

Madrid is a representation of all Spain yes (because most madrileños are from other parts of Spain), but to think of it as the standard is wrong. Barcelona, and other beautiful cities, are as spanish as Madrid. But just different. Think that historicly Spain has been fragmented in so many cultures...

Fernando

Asterault writes: You've got that right! Seems to me if you ask 10 people living in Madrid where they're from only 5 will say they're from Madrid and the other 5 will be from other parts of Spain. Ask 10 living in Barcelona and 8 will be from Barcelona. I think that's why I think of Madrid as more like "Real Spain" BECAUSE of it's mix of different Spanish cultures.

But back to the topic about which we're discussing...
Actually, while I don't know the population of Barcelona, Madrid city only have 3 million persons -- La Comunidad de Madrid does have 6 million persons though. Barcelona has 3 million persons? Maybe that's the province of Barcelona and not the city of Barcelona??

It is tougher to keep a larger city clean and yes, as I said above, it did seem Barcelona was cleaner than Madrid, but I really haven't noticed it myself. I guess when I'm walking around I don't concentrate on such things as much as I do the people, the culture, and the architecture around me...... DOH!! I JUST STEPPED IN SOME DOG DOO!! Hahahahaa!!

Saludos, MadridMan

Toddy,

Yes, dirt is dirt, but what the statement references is the fact that each of our households, and communities, has developed a degree of tolerance in some specific areas. As a result, these little things become somewhat acceptable.

Madrid's customs are their own. Personally I don't think it's any worse than walking down the streets of Paris forty years ago, and seeing dozens of men urninating on the sides of buildings, and it having been acceptable. I didn't decide that Paris was "filth" because of it then, but I did find it a bit disgusting when I saw a guy with a pastry in one hand, doing his business with the other, then reaching down to grab his trousers, to "zip up," the pastry following with the hand - I'm afraid I just had to stick around and watch, as he transferred the pastry to the opposite hand after he was done, and went about his business, eating the delicacy It made me think twice about whose hands I shook, and things of that ilk.

Still, Paris was lovely, in its own way. Madrid is lovely also, in its own way, and I've learned to accept its little idio-syncrosies because the things I enjoy most about Madrid far outweigh the things I don't like.

I agree with the comments about the influences in Madrid & Barcelona. Over the years Barcelona has been a melting pot of tourists which has helped shape what the city became, whereas the influences on Madrid are less "continental" in nature. Madrid has been able to hold on to old customs while Barcelona has bent to accept more new culture, from other areas, and nations. But let's face it, that's what always happens in highly developed tourist areas. They begin to change to meet the new arrivals. Eventually, even the trendy restaurants, and businesses, become more like the people that visit them.

Wolf (Who likes Madrid pretty much the way it is.)

Now, let's compare Madris to another European city, PARIS. My friend Flicia came to visit me and she told me that Madrid was 100 times cleaner than Paris. She said that the caca de perros was worse than Madrid. She also valued how clean the subways were. Also how nice the people in Madrid were.

I have no interest in going to Barcelona at all and never will. It just doesn't interest me at all. Just the name, UGHHH!

Madrid is it for me, as far as living is concerned and I will move there and make a new life for myself. My MA in Spanish helps a lot.

Shawn

It's true, Barcelona touts itself as more cosmopolitan than Madrid but it's not. It has a community of foriegners, but the locals themselves are closed and quite xenophobic, to tell the truth. Almost all of my friends in Barcelona are foreigners, and those whom are from here have lived abroad. There are 2 Barcelonas basically.

However it's a great place to visit and a very pleasant city.

I was referring to Madrid and Barcelona with all their outlying 'mess,' as it's basically one city. If you are from Tres Cantos (god help you...) you say you are from Madrid generally.

I personally don't find Spain that dirty. No, it's not as clean as for example Vancouver. However, Madrid is a European city and especially after a fiesta will naturally be dirty. I've been to small little towns in Spain such as Cuellar, that after a fiesta look like they've been hit by a hurricane. Besides, when I go somewhere foreign, I don't compare how things are in relation to where I reside. We all know that Canada is one of the most cleanist countries in the world, so naturally you'll find it hard to find another country with the same cleansiness. I've also been numerous times to South America and Mexico, and I remember a time on one occasion my friend was appalled at eating under a patio umbrella by the road while diesel trucks drove by and polluted the air. Call me sick, but I actually like that, the smell reminds me that, "Hey, I'm not in Canada, I'm in Mexico or in Venezuela". The same goes for Spain, my family is from Valladolid. And everytime I go back and visit and walk by an alley way and get a wiff of that nasty urine smell, it reminds me that "hey I'm back in Spain!". Don't worry, I'm not some sick individual who gets off by the smell of piss. But, my point is that a vacation is what you make of it. If you go somewhere on vacation, comparing it to your country, then you might as well stay home, or someone pointed out go to Disney World.

Although Liverpool is not exactly London i cant help feeling that Madrid has had a beating over this cleanliness thing.I loved the way the streets were cleaned at night(hosed down)and have plenty of fond memories dodging the hoses while a smirking street cleaner went about his work(yes we did stay out late :o )

Liverpool by comparison is filthy compared to Madrid!The "brown flowers"are just as bad but definately no worse than here.I think England was one of the last countries to discover poop scoops, but at least its now a universally unnacceptable thing to leave your dog mess.
spike(Toothpick and napkin collection holder)

Last night at around 1AM and in the company of another MMan member by the way, we had a good laugh remembering this thread because we passed by a strange yellowish automovile "called" something like 'SERVICIO ESPECIAL DE LIMPIEZA URGENTE' , and they were 6 MEN! driving and walking around this vehicle! All we saw them do was pick up a couple of small plastic bags from the floor, so we were wondering what was so urgent about that!

my opinion is that Madrid is very clean. I usually stay in el barrio Salamanca. that area is very clean and pleasant. the rest of Madrid is exceptionally clean. i used to live in the Pacific Northwest and i realize that some from these less developed, newer areas of the world, are shocked by the appearance of the rest of the world.
thanks for your opinion.

I'm glad someone mentioned Paris poopy, because it is the same problem over there!
I think Madrid is no less/no more dirty than some other European cities, and i'm sorry that is the only thing you can remember about it!
As far as the bars' floors are concerned, mi esposo says "the more papers and shrimp heads on the floor, the better the bar!" You gotta love the shrimp heads, Wolf, don't forget to suck the juice out of the heads before chucking them, that's the best part! I agree with you, on the shrimp heads, at our restaurant, i always explain to the Americans the the gambas a la plancha we serve have the heads, 90% will cancel that order, we (Americans as a whole) just don't like our food staring back at us!

p.s. everytime I smell deisel from a bus, I think of Madrid!

Now the new buses run on natural gas, and the diesel buses are getting fewer!

There's an interesting article/interview on Madridiario.es entitled "Las calles de Madrid están mucho más limpias que hace unos años" ("The streets of Madrid are much cleaner than a few years ago"). Here's part of the article, but you can read the rest (In Spanish, of course) HERE :

Entrevista

Julio Martín Pérez: Barrendero del distrito de Salamanca

"Las calles de Madrid están mucho más limpias que hace unos años"
Madrid.- Ana Narbón Fotos: Javier Prieto

Ser barrendero no es la típica profesión que, de pequeño, se idolatra con la frase: 'yo, de mayor, quiero ser barrendero', pero, sin embargo, es un trabajo que realizan cientos de personas en la capital de España con la cabeza bien alta, ya que sin su labor sería imposible mantener una gran urbe como Madrid sin restos de suciedad. MDO ha querido conocer de cerca en qué consiste el trabajo diario de un operario de la limpieza que dedica su vida laboral a limpiar lo que el resto de los ciudadanos ensucian.

¿Desde cuándo lleva trabajando como barrendero?
El año 94 decidí probar en la profesión de barrendero. No tiene nada que ver con lo que hacía antes, ya que he sido fotógrafo profesional durante media vida mía -ahora tengo 56 años-; luego fuí montador de electrónica en la empresa Philips durante 16 años, hasta que cerraron la fábrica y entones me quedé sin trabajo. A partir de ahí fue cuando me hice barrendero de Madrid.
****
...read the rest of the article, with photos, HERE .

You're right Wolf, anything can be called "art" or "culture" or "pretty" or "clean."

The urbanization processes that are taking place are not under control in Madrid and are resulting in a rising crime rate and dirtier alleys(yes, I know they do clean the major streets at night).
I think it is culturally dangerous to accept this process as world-view. I think that Madrid(and the rest of Spain) could learn a lot from Barcelona on many fronts; starting with how to keep a city clean.

Has anyone been to London!
Well, Picadilly, King street, Regent's Street for example. If we choose to focus on dirt rather than whats around us then LOndon streets are 'filthy'! But London is great!
What I hate most is the gum that people just spit out which then forms a permanent plaque-like disease on the lovely paving of London add to that gallons of spit and phlegm(a favourite pass time where people are in competition to see whose has the most clinging factor, yes they spit on walls too! )to that add the constant grease and grim, yuk - it is actually a health risk and a reason why carpets in the house is not a favourable choice. I think spain, including Madrid, hasn't lost the human touch to their cities, the streets are cleaned with care and pride compared to London, oh and errr late at night i have to hop scotch over streams of pee and drunkards, (who pee and sleep at the same time),this/they don't always get hosed down! and....here people definAtely don't scoop the poop instead owners smile reassuringly at their pet as if to say 'good job'and move on.
obviously this doesn't deter tourists, who like me LOVE LONDON.

Remember to say hello next time you step over me,miche

Spike, i'm to be found under Waterloo Bridge in my cardboard box, i'll treat you to someone's left over beer, least i think it's beer, and we can share the cigarette butts :p

Move over, miche!

Is there space me? We need some practice incase our room falls through in Madrid!

Oops, sorry spike1, didn't see little old you lying there too!

Only drink it if it's clear and colourless miche! Warm Larios is fine by me. Not interested in the cigarette buts though!

Back to the subject - actually, Huddersfield is pretty damn filthy sometimes. The subterranean areas are comletely rat infested and the bin men that visit me leave a nasty trail of rubbish down our lovely lane. Give me Madrid any day.

Jo

On a related note, and also at www.madridiario.es there is a follow up article entitled: "Los años de Madrid están mucho más limpios que unas calles"

CaliBasco [Who makes sure that his ano is always cleaner than the calle]

Okay, I´ve been skirting around this topic but here goes. I was walking around the gothic quarter in Barcelona and came across a huge block of(I would bet my firstborn) feces in the middle of the walk in front of Barri gothic. I talked to another girl who was in Barcelona and she saw the same thing!
I love barcelona and this is in no way a representation of or my impression of the city but I´m SOOO curious, Where did it COME FROM?

I definatley agree with Wolf. I was at first a little put off a little by the different smells and such, but what would a european think of San Francisco, or New York for that matter?

I also think that Barcelona is as Spanish as lets say the north of spain. Spain is made up of unique and very individual regions, THAT´is what´s Spanish!

Right now I am studying in Bilbao, in northern Spain. Just spent a weekend in Madrid. Although I loved the city, I would have to say that in comparison with Bilbao, Madrid is dirty. The biggest thing that stood out in my mind was the subway. I was surprised at Madrid's subway. Here in Bilbao, the subway is VERY, VERY clean. Still, it is probably important to keep in mind that Madrid is a lot bigger city than Bilbao. That said, I dont think that Madrid is any more dirty than a city of comparable size in the USA. :p

kelar419, I recently read an article in www.Madridiario.es about a special commission (??) being appointed to address the messy state of its subways. I saw photos and it seemed the majority of the trash were the unwanted, tossed aside, free Metro daily newspaper. Do away with those and free publications like it and the metro stops would be cleaner, I'm sure. But THAT will never happen (doing away with the free publications, that is). I rode the metro several times last spring and Christmas and didn't notice the metro stops or the metro trains themselves to be trashy at all.

Saludos, MadridMan

The reason why Madrid's subway was so dirty on that week is because the employees in charge of the cleaning were on strike.

As for the newspaper, it is said they were the employees as well who cut them in small pieces and throw them all over the platforms and corridors to show "how dirty the subway is" and "what a wonderful work they do everyday for little money". I wouldn't believe someone taking the subway bothers to cut them in pieces before throwing it.

Thanks for the info!! That explains why the metro was such a mess the weekend I was there

Hola Alabina, what a beautiful handle, just like the famous Arabic singer!

Well, I must say,Alabina, I had the opposite experience, I found Spain very clean, cleaner than Miami, Jacksonville or Orlando, Florida, that's for sure!

In Madrid I was amazed by the joy the street cleaners had every time they found dirt! They were everywhere after 9 p.m. I was there last during Christmas 2001 and New Year, and during that time I would have expected a mess, but no, everything was clean and tidy. The restrooms in the Renfe and Autores station were very clean, but alas like all countries, too few stalls for women . The facilities in the Renfe trains I took were delightful, clean and well supplied with paper towels and soap, very sanitary, I wish our own Amtrak had those standards!

I did notice that the floor of the wonderful Tapa bars I visited were a bit dirty, but since I din't eat off the floor, it did not bother me a whole lot, after a couple of cañas and jamon iberico, I was cool about the dirt. As a matter of fact it gave my trip that traveler's ambiance that says, Gal you aint home no more! That is delightful. However, the restaurants I visited had spotless floors.

The cleanest place was a laundry in Huertas called Onda Blue, that by the way also has Internet ready computers so you can chat while you wash! That place looked like Mr. Clean lived there!

The museums were spotless! I accidentally dropped a napkin at the Prado and the Museum attendant called me back to pick it up with the same stern look I give people with overdue books.

I experience the same ambiance of cleanliness at Salamanca, Segovia and Santiago de Compostela. It was almost eerie that the streets were so clean, after all some of these places have been around since medieval times.

Anyway Alabina, may your next trip to Spain be a cleaner one!