I think it's interesting that MMan wrote:

"toddy, sorry, I beg to differ with you, but to me Barcelona is a better representation of Europe and not at all of Spain herself."

HERSELF? I guess that means you consider Spain femenine (Gee! I wonder why, ha, ha! ). Good!

About Madrid's dirtiness, I agree on the following issues: the cigarrette butts, and the dog's "little ornaments".
However I think from somebody coming from the "New World", the mere fact that many parts of Madrid are OLD (buildings, streets, etc....) can give the general impression of carelessness.
Of course reflecting on it some may argue that in the US or Canada one can also find buildings just as old as mine, for instance (over a hundred years old), and that's true; but my point is; can you find in NorthAmerican cities old streets so narrow that were clearly meant only for pedestrians, since not even carriages could circulate?

About the prostitution, I second the question: Boy, where have you been hanging out???! Like in most European cities, there are just a few very specific places where you can "see" any of that: the street Montera (near Puerta del Sol), the Casa de campo (shameful!), the (street)Capitan Haya area, and I've been recently told there's some "high-class-prostitution" in Fortuny street. That's it! (as far as I know).

Barcelona is not French at all. Barcelona is Catalán, and therefore Spanish. Castilla, while generally associated with things Spanish, represents just one part of a pluralistic country with differing customs and cultures, such as Galicia, Cataluña, Asturias or Navarra, etc.

If you compare Barcelona and Madrid, yes Barcelona is cleaner (well, relatively), but Barcelona has 3 million people and Madrid has 6 million. Philadelphia is cleaner than New York but it also is half the size. I think any city, once it gets to a certain size, is just dirty because of how many people are there.

I think Asterault is right... Barcelona is a catalonian city. One of the best spanish richness is our diversity. But MM is also right, Barcelona has french influences, much more than Madrid (which also has! or do you think that Napoleon did nothing here?).

Madrid is a representation of all Spain yes (because most madrileños are from other parts of Spain), but to think of it as the standard is wrong. Barcelona, and other beautiful cities, are as spanish as Madrid. But just different. Think that historicly Spain has been fragmented in so many cultures...

Fernando

Asterault writes: You've got that right! Seems to me if you ask 10 people living in Madrid where they're from only 5 will say they're from Madrid and the other 5 will be from other parts of Spain. Ask 10 living in Barcelona and 8 will be from Barcelona. I think that's why I think of Madrid as more like "Real Spain" BECAUSE of it's mix of different Spanish cultures.

But back to the topic about which we're discussing...
Actually, while I don't know the population of Barcelona, Madrid city only have 3 million persons -- La Comunidad de Madrid does have 6 million persons though. Barcelona has 3 million persons? Maybe that's the province of Barcelona and not the city of Barcelona??

It is tougher to keep a larger city clean and yes, as I said above, it did seem Barcelona was cleaner than Madrid, but I really haven't noticed it myself. I guess when I'm walking around I don't concentrate on such things as much as I do the people, the culture, and the architecture around me...... DOH!! I JUST STEPPED IN SOME DOG DOO!! Hahahahaa!!

Saludos, MadridMan

Toddy,

Yes, dirt is dirt, but what the statement references is the fact that each of our households, and communities, has developed a degree of tolerance in some specific areas. As a result, these little things become somewhat acceptable.

Madrid's customs are their own. Personally I don't think it's any worse than walking down the streets of Paris forty years ago, and seeing dozens of men urninating on the sides of buildings, and it having been acceptable. I didn't decide that Paris was "filth" because of it then, but I did find it a bit disgusting when I saw a guy with a pastry in one hand, doing his business with the other, then reaching down to grab his trousers, to "zip up," the pastry following with the hand - I'm afraid I just had to stick around and watch, as he transferred the pastry to the opposite hand after he was done, and went about his business, eating the delicacy It made me think twice about whose hands I shook, and things of that ilk.

Still, Paris was lovely, in its own way. Madrid is lovely also, in its own way, and I've learned to accept its little idio-syncrosies because the things I enjoy most about Madrid far outweigh the things I don't like.

I agree with the comments about the influences in Madrid & Barcelona. Over the years Barcelona has been a melting pot of tourists which has helped shape what the city became, whereas the influences on Madrid are less "continental" in nature. Madrid has been able to hold on to old customs while Barcelona has bent to accept more new culture, from other areas, and nations. But let's face it, that's what always happens in highly developed tourist areas. They begin to change to meet the new arrivals. Eventually, even the trendy restaurants, and businesses, become more like the people that visit them.

Wolf (Who likes Madrid pretty much the way it is.)

Now, let's compare Madris to another European city, PARIS. My friend Flicia came to visit me and she told me that Madrid was 100 times cleaner than Paris. She said that the caca de perros was worse than Madrid. She also valued how clean the subways were. Also how nice the people in Madrid were.

I have no interest in going to Barcelona at all and never will. It just doesn't interest me at all. Just the name, UGHHH!

Madrid is it for me, as far as living is concerned and I will move there and make a new life for myself. My MA in Spanish helps a lot.

Shawn

It's true, Barcelona touts itself as more cosmopolitan than Madrid but it's not. It has a community of foriegners, but the locals themselves are closed and quite xenophobic, to tell the truth. Almost all of my friends in Barcelona are foreigners, and those whom are from here have lived abroad. There are 2 Barcelonas basically.

However it's a great place to visit and a very pleasant city.

I was referring to Madrid and Barcelona with all their outlying 'mess,' as it's basically one city. If you are from Tres Cantos (god help you...) you say you are from Madrid generally.

I personally don't find Spain that dirty. No, it's not as clean as for example Vancouver. However, Madrid is a European city and especially after a fiesta will naturally be dirty. I've been to small little towns in Spain such as Cuellar, that after a fiesta look like they've been hit by a hurricane. Besides, when I go somewhere foreign, I don't compare how things are in relation to where I reside. We all know that Canada is one of the most cleanist countries in the world, so naturally you'll find it hard to find another country with the same cleansiness. I've also been numerous times to South America and Mexico, and I remember a time on one occasion my friend was appalled at eating under a patio umbrella by the road while diesel trucks drove by and polluted the air. Call me sick, but I actually like that, the smell reminds me that, "Hey, I'm not in Canada, I'm in Mexico or in Venezuela". The same goes for Spain, my family is from Valladolid. And everytime I go back and visit and walk by an alley way and get a wiff of that nasty urine smell, it reminds me that "hey I'm back in Spain!". Don't worry, I'm not some sick individual who gets off by the smell of piss. But, my point is that a vacation is what you make of it. If you go somewhere on vacation, comparing it to your country, then you might as well stay home, or someone pointed out go to Disney World.

Although Liverpool is not exactly London i cant help feeling that Madrid has had a beating over this cleanliness thing.I loved the way the streets were cleaned at night(hosed down)and have plenty of fond memories dodging the hoses while a smirking street cleaner went about his work(yes we did stay out late :o )

Liverpool by comparison is filthy compared to Madrid!The "brown flowers"are just as bad but definately no worse than here.I think England was one of the last countries to discover poop scoops, but at least its now a universally unnacceptable thing to leave your dog mess.
spike(Toothpick and napkin collection holder)

Last night at around 1AM and in the company of another MMan member by the way, we had a good laugh remembering this thread because we passed by a strange yellowish automovile "called" something like 'SERVICIO ESPECIAL DE LIMPIEZA URGENTE' , and they were 6 MEN! driving and walking around this vehicle! All we saw them do was pick up a couple of small plastic bags from the floor, so we were wondering what was so urgent about that!