Nevado,

Been there! Done that! They sure are noisy buggers when they pass by real low. I'm afraid I still dive for cover when I hear them... complete with yelling out "Hit the deck!" to anyone close enough to hear.

I can remember one time when the sound of jet fighters was the sweetest music I ever heard. That was back when I was young, and in Viet Nam. Had it not been for them... I'd probably not be here today.

Wolf (Who has a love/hate relationship with low flying fighter planes.)

Wolf,

For some reason I KNEW you'd come back with that...

In Bilbao there are some streets where there are a lot of bars and are big party areas. There are nowhere near enough bathrooms for all of this and so everyone pees all over the place. It´s pretty discusting, but early every day (4-5am?) city workers come out with hoses and wash everything down and clean up the area. Suring the day it is a vibrant shopping area and you would never know what happens there at night. My point to all of this is that people may make a mess but they clean it up.

When I lived in Madrid I always thought it was a very clean city especially for the size. "Madrid Limpio y Verde" is a slogan I remember seeing quite often. Compared to many large cities in the U.S., Madrid is pretty clean.

Alabina,

you missed the part where the cleaning crews hit the streets early in the morning or late at night and not only *sweep* the streets clean, they *SPRAY* the streets vigorously with 'firehoses' in order to round up all the debris.

also, the floors in the tapas bars are swept up several times a day by the barman, until it gets too busy to tend to.

the dog doo? i totally agree. there should be a special dog-log patrol that stares down pet owners *AS* their pets are dumping to make sure it gets picked up and put in the trash. two reasons i wouldn't have a dog in madrid anyway; a.) i don't wanna touch dog doo (even thru a glove), and b.) it's cruel to keep a larger dog locked up in a tiny madrid apartment.

but from what i've heard, very few places in the world can be compared to the cleanliness of Vancouver... lucky you!

The truth is the truth even if it hurts, Madrid is getting very close to a garbage dump. From the cig butts, broken bottles, urine stench in almost all quarters, prostitutes, graffiti, drug addicts I would have thought I was in downtown LA. Buuuut, in LA there are more air-conditioners.

and Wolf, dirt is dirt no matter how it's Spainly Spattered

I say, if you come from a clean city in the US and want to visit Spain and have better chances of a positive experience, check out Barcelona. It is like night and day from Madrid. All your loves aside madridman, Barcelona is the best representation of Spain!

toddy, sorry, I beg to differ with you, but to me Barcelona is a better representation of Europe and not at all of Spain herself.

To me, REAL Spain is in Castilla and Andalucía. Just ask any Catalán if THEY think they're more like "Real Spain" and they'll either slap you or throw a number of 4-letter Spanish words your way. heheehehe.. They'd rather be anything but "Spanish"!

Sure, Barcelona is cleaner and prettier. I agree 100%. But, at least to me, it's not at all "Spanish". More FRENCH than Spanish if anything, I'd say. Sorry. I usually keep this opinion to myself, but... I just had to do it this time.

DID YOU SAY FRENCH!!!!!!? Ouch, that hurts ( probably for a Spaniard even more)

But seriously, Madrid is fast losing it's mythical "Spanishness" in the rapid first world Spanish modernization and all the problems associated with the process; whether we like it our not.

If I were you, I would bring your girlfriend here, make some money and buy a vacation home in Madrid. I know A LOT of Spanish women (many teachers) who fell in love with American men over the past ten years. ALL OF THEM, at first, wanted to go back to their idealized childhood "Spain." Some of them even tried to go back. Every Spaniard had to face the present reality that Spain will never be like their youthful vision again. However, all of them now are enjoying the best of both worlds: good paying jobs in the US, great living conditions, and unas espanolas childhood suenos on vacation in Spain.

Uh oh! The catalanes have gotten to Toddy first!

Toddy, its a shame you aren't able to open your mind more. Madrid may not be the cleanest city in the world, and I've never been to vancouver, so I can't compare. However, I HAVE traveled quite a bit and just as so many others posted, its different. Madrid however, is NOT the filthy cesspool you seem to think it is. The kids and their Botellones is the biggest issue, I've been a part of that group, but always making sure to clean my mess, as well as a a good deal left from other people. I don't know where you were hanging out, but Prostitutes? Come on, you'll find that ANYWHERE you travel around the globe! As far as the doggie doo... well we're not ALL like that! My aunt even caught a woman walking her dog down our street who let her cocker spaniel do its stuff and was about to walk away when my aunt (yes, 100% spanish, and 100% from Madrid) called her on it. The woman said she didn't have a bag and my aunt offered one to her, even walked outside to hand it to her! So you see you've got responsible people and not so responsible people. I've seen PLENTY of americans just let their dogs go anywhere and pick up after them even less! the biggest difference is, in the USA most neighbourhoods have yards and people are so considerate to let their dogs poo in a yard that's not theirs, and you can't see it as well BECAUSE its grass.

The bars and clubs. Give me a break. There are PLENTY of places in the States, and yes, Canada too, that don't bother with paper (everyone in Spain knows this, and if your friends from there didn't warn you, well, most of us just know, its BYO (bring your own!)... it just runs out anyway, and too many stupid drunks end up using half the roll and clogging up toilets that lead to flooded floors...that will happen anywhere you go. If the flooded floors were the norm though, again like with the prostitutes, WHERE were you hanging out?!??!?!I agree with the water issue though. At least give me water!

Barcelona.. MM is right, its not SOOOOO spanish. Do we need to clean up more? Well, with the street cleaners and everything else I think the city is pretty good about keeping it up and tidy. You may not agree, and that's fine, but comparing us to a third world country, I think that's not only pushing it, but find it very offensive. I've seen yards in the united states where people seem to think a broken down rusted car is a lawn ornament, but I'm not going to say only go to Washington DC to appreciate the USA- that would be absurd and narrow minded of me, now wouldn't it?! There is no one true place of any country that will show you all there is about it. Some places are only more popular or easier to get to than others. Barcelona is a very beautiful city, and so is Madrid, you can't compare the two really, they are night and day. But just like New York, I like it with the good and the bad, it gives it character. Personally I don't like to be so sheltered and don't want to live in a 'perfect place'- I can visit Disney World for that! That's just MY opinion.

Hello alabina, you have been in Madrid during the fiestas, that's why you have seen so many garbage, there is so many people together in the same place that the town council prefer to clean it at the end of the day better than making an special effort to avoid it.
Normally Madrid is not an example of clean city but is OK. The cleanest town of Spain it's suposed to be Oviedo (the 2nd cleanest of Europe I think)