I would particularly like to know about Antonio Machado's poem containing the lines

Is this the full poem? Or an extract?

Also, what does he mean by "the two Spains"? Does it refer to the Republican and Nationalist, or something else?

Jes

And he says he's got a lot more questions where that one came from!

Jo

Jes,

Here is the full poem that you asked about:

Ya hay un espanol que quiere
vivir y a vivir empieza,
entre una Espana que muere
y otra Espana que bosteza.
Espanolito que vienes
al mundo, te guarde Dios.
Una de las dos Espanas
ha de helarte el corazón.

This is part of a series of "Proverbios y Cantares" that Machado wrote. This particular one is number 53 and it was first published in his book, Nuevas Canciones (1924). Since it was published 12 years before the civil war the "two Spains" that he talks about probably aren't the Republican and Nationalist. He could be referring to Spain before and after 1898 since he was a member of a group of poets called "generacion del '98" After Spain lost its last colonies in America in 1898 a group of writers began to question what the essence of Spain was as they tried to understand the reason for its decline. They were also critical of Spain since they considered it to be apathetic and directionless. So the Spain "que muere" in the poem could be the Spain before 1898 (the Spanish empire that was defeated) and the Spain "que bosteza" could be the directionless Spain of Machado's time, but this is just my interpretation of it.

SuperGuiri

Many thanks for your information about Machado's poem.

I'm interested in your ideas about the two Spains.

Do you know of any books about Machado? I'd like to learn more.

Thanks.

Jes

Hi Jes, Welcome to the board!
reading your post made me remember the wonderful album Joan Manuel Serrat did many years ago in 1975( I am dating myself! ) It is called "Dedicado a Antonio Machado" and it has a hot pink cover.
You inspired me to take it out and listen to it . I tend to get lazy just listening to my CDs and forgeting about my album collection. Well, the album is amazing! and it includes that poem "Españolito". If you like the poem, you will love hearing Serrat's ballad. I hope you can find it.

I also love Machado. I even made a pillgrimmage to Soria to see "el olmo seco" and the "campana del campanario" as well as Machado's grave. I loved being there...yet it was a pretty nondescript place.
Machado is a wonderful poet. He has been one of my favorites for a long time.
Here is another one of my favorite poems by Antonio Machado:

Caminante, son las huellas
el camino y nada más;
caminate, no hay camino,
se hace camino al andar.
Al andar se hace camino
y al volver la vista atrás
se ve la senda que nunca
se ha de volver a pisar.
Caminante, no hay camino
sino estelas en la mar.

I love that poem as well. I also made a trip to Soria to wander around the hills overlooking the Duero. As a companion poem, I love Proverbios y Cantares XLVII:

Cuatro cosas tiene el hombre
que no sirven en la mar:
ancla, gobernalle y remos,
y miedo de naufragar.

Also the sonnet:

?Por que decisme, hacia los altos llanos
huye mi corazon de esta ribera,
y en tierra labradora y marinera
suspiro por los yermos castellanos?

Nadie elige su amor. Llevome un dia
mi destino a los grises calvijares
donde ahuyenta al caer la nieve fria
las sombras de los muertos encinares.

De aquel trozo de España, alto y roquero,
hoy traigo a ti, Guadalquivir florido,
una mata del aspero romero.

Mi corazon esta donde ha nacido,
no a la vida, al amor, cerca del Duero ...
!El muro blanco y el cipres erguido!

Antonio tells this one from the Guadalquivir in Sevilla where he was born, thinking of Castilla, where he was born "to love". His "destino" led him there to meet his future wife.

Here's one of ny favourite Antonio Machado poems. I just love this. I've never been to Sanlúcar (de Barrameda), but when I do I plan to recite this!

The poet is standing in Sanlúcar, looking out at the delta of the "great river" (Guadalquivir)...

¡Oh, Guadalquivir!
Te vi en Cazorla nacer,
Hoy en Sanlúcar morir.

Un borbollón de agua clara
Debajo de un pino verde,
Eras tú ¡Qué bien sonabas!

Como yo, cerca del mar,
Río de barro salobre,
¿Sueñas con tu manantial?

(This is from memory so it may not exactly correct)

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion about Machado.It was interesting to read some of the poetry which people posted.I've read Spanish and Latin American poetry in translation and would ultimately like to appreciate it in the original.
I'm currently learning Spanish but I don't yet have the skills to read in the original language. Having to pick up a dictionary destroys the immediacy but even in the long term I'm not sure that anyone can really grasp the nuances of work that is not in their native language.
Much of poetry's power comes from the evocation of shared experience,the sharp recognition of, for example, childhood memory. Can this ever be perceived by the non native speaker?
In addition, the sound of words, even the feel of them in the mouth,is embedded in youthful experience and creates resonances of which meaning is only a part. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who disagrees and feels that subtlety is accessible in a language learned in adulthood.How do native spanish speakers feel about their appreciation of english poetry for example?
I've always wanted to read spanish and latin poetry in translation precisely because it seems to survive this translation.This may be because of its' powerful imagery.

What got me started on this was reading translations of Pablo Neruda which seemed to indicate that, whoever the translator, Neruda's personality seemed to survive the mediation.In particular, the power of the imagery appeared undiminshed.Perhaps this is an extreme example because Neruda's poetry can often seem like a series of images without context but it may also be true of other spanish language poetry.
Am I wrong?

Jes, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Some poetry does draw on "the evocation of shared experience", but much more poetry is the evocation of the poet's own personal experience.

Language is a big barrier, but I can attest that with much study and reading and travel and practice, opportunities, and drive, it can be surpassed. I can now appreciate the words of Machado or Neruda more than I could those of Emily Dickinson or Wordsworth. Poetry is a difficult form of language, but even a few drops in the original tongue is better than a liter of translation. I think there are some poems a first year student in a language can handle, and others that even native speakers can't comprehend. Choose one of the first kind and use dictionaries and other black arms (words of Neruda) to decipher it.

Thanks for the contributions on reading poetry in what is not your first language.
I appreciate the comments made by Caminante i.e. that the language barrier can be surpassed and I would like to follow this up in my own reading.

I might draw a parallel with music and say that while music is in some sense a universal language,it is also true that in order to receive the message you have to understand the standards of the domain.
A good example of this might be Flamenco. In non Spaniards, Flamenco often provokes extreme reactions, both pro and anti. For those that are drawn to the flame, the attraction is frequently the fact that they sense deep feeling in the music and I would applaud this. On the other hand, they don't appreciate the standards of the domain e,g the compas etc.Consequently they miss so much of the message.
I would suggest that,in poetry,the situation is often exactly the reverse.You can study the technique, the structure, the vocabulary even, but,if it is not in your first language, the language in which you breathe, you can never really feel it.

I would be interested to hear people's views on this.It would be particularly interesting to hear from those who speak more than one language, especially anyone who frequently switches between two languages or more.

I speak fairly impoverished French, yet when I stayed in France for just a week and spoke it every day, I felt I was discovering parts of my personality that I hadn't met before.Despite this I don't feel that I could fully appreciate a French poem.I could certainly sit down with a dictionary and come up with a primitive translation but any subtlety would be lost.I'm sure everyone will be familiar with phrases that "just don't translate".My question is," What happens if a whole way of being doesn't translate?

esperanza

I have looked up the album by Joan Manuel Serrat on Amazon and spent the last 10 minutes listening to a little of each track (I wasn't expecting to be able to find it, let alone listen to it!)

Can you tell me, does the album sleeve cover have the poems' words on? I would imagine that it does. I wonder if the CD cover does. Don't you find it annoying when you buy a CD these days (old woman Jo! ) with little or no information on?

I'll show the Amazon info to Jes later and see what he thinks.

Jo

Jo,

Yes! The album has all the words. I don't know about the CD. I am so glad you got to hear it...it is a fabulous album!
Saludos,
Esperanza

For more Spanish poems in song form with lyrics included (from authors from Quevedo and Gongora to Machado and Neruda) try any disc from Paco Ibañez. He's impossible to find on this side of the Atlantic, but available in Spain and France. Incredible, incredible music. To hear a poem from the 14th century (from Arcipreste de Hita) that still rings true today, is incredible. For an incredible collection of poems on line try Poesias