I'm in a mood, so I'll vent.

Spring is here and thus bullfighting is back on television. Just to remind myself what a gory show it is, I just sat through another one of the slayings on TV and am still amazed by it. It's so frustrating, that I'd thought I'd share...

When I first came to Spain I had this idea that bull fighting was this sort of "traditional" sport where once a year or so they would kill a bull or two and that it was okay. But it's not like that at all. It's a sport, televised just like baseball is in the U.S... Thousands of bulls are killed each year in the most amazingly cruel manner possible.

Let me walk you through a typical bullfight... I've seen several of them all the way through on television. First the bull comes out of the pen and it's raring to go. It looks around the arena and sees 4 or 5 (not sure) matador-like guys with pink capes. So the bull starts charging them (of course) and really gets worked up. He's got spit flying out of his mouth, he's running around like and idiot and really defending his turf. But the pink-cape guys are just there to tire him out, so they work as a team running the bull around the arena until he starts to wear down.

After a few minutes of chasing pink ghosts, the bull naturally starts to get a little tired and wary and slows down. That's when they bring out the Picador, which is this guy on horseback with a lance. Don't worry about the horse, he's padded up nicely so the bull doesn't do damage to him (or at least not a lot). The bull seeing a new threat, charges the horse. He hits the horse pretty good, but gets his horns caught up in the padding while trying to LIFT the horse. The picador on horseback, uses this opportunity to stick his lance BETWEEN the shoulder blades of the bull. He puts as much of his weight on it as possible so it gets really deep in. They disengage and go at it two or three times so that the picador can get the lance in nice and deep between the bulls shoulders.

This weakens the bull in a variety of ways and you can start to see the blood flowing pretty nicely. Once the picador goes away, the bull definitely has lost that edge he had. But now it's another guys turn to beat up on the bull... the banderilleros (I had to look that one up) come in and start sticking the bull with handheld spears right in the same spot. They stick six or eight of the brightly colored spears (called banderillas) in the bull and they stick there in his back, tearing at the skin and further making his final moments more torturous and confusing. You can see that the bull moves a lot more gently now that the spears are hanging from his back sticking him with every movement...

The bull by this time is tired and wounded and it's obvious by his toungue sticking half way out of his head while he makes half-efforts at his attackers. A few times I've seen that the bull is so worn out by this time that he just stands still and takes it...

Now comes the matador. The brave, fearless matador to face his opponent. Now that his thugs have beaten up the bull pretty nicely, he's there to finish the job. So he takes out the red cape and taunts the bull to run at him. The closer the bull is the cooler it is and the crowd ACTUALLY SAYS "OLE!" when the bull passes... just like in Bugs Bunny. But unlike in cartoons, the bull is dying. He's bleeding profusely (why do you think the cape is blood red, so you don't see the gore as much) and has no energy. The bull lunges clumsily with whatever effort he can muster, but it's not much.

In today's event, the bull passed the matador, tried to turn around, stumbled and fell. Lay there for a moment before getting up. However, it was obvious that he had landed wrong and broken his back leg or foot. But the show isn't stopped, only prolonged... The matador tempts the bull a few more times until it's obvious that the bull has no more energy left, then walks over, gets a slightly curved sword and comes back for the kill.

The matador waits for a moment, positions himself correctly then charges the bull with the sword plunging it between the bull's shoulder blades and into his heart. Ahhhh, if it were only that easy... The matador more often than not, misses his target, and must go back and get another sword or two to finish the job. The bull hangs around for another stab (or two), but then realizes that the end is near and limps pitifully away over to the wall of the arena trying to find a way out of this hell he is in. The bull wanders around, the matador and his henchmen following until, finally, the bull can't stand his wounds any more and he collapses down onto his knees like a cow before the rain and remains there panting.

And the crowd goes WILD!

No really! They're ecstatic! The matador bows and one of his cronies goes over to the bull to finally put him out of his misery. He has what looks like a small dirk in his hand, and uses it to stab the bull in the back of the head to kill him instantly. Gufaw. Yeah, right. One hit! Nope. Two hits! Nope. Three! The bull just takes it, unable to move while this idiot stabs him in the head with a long knife. Then mercifully, this bozo finds his mark - the brain stem - and the bull spasms in death and finally dies. Or at least the television pans away, finally deeming this event too grotesque for even the viewing audience.

It's all over now, so they cut off the bulls ears and something else and then three horses come in, hitch up to the bull and drag him out of the bull ring unceremoniously... after 3 or 4 fights in a row (there are always more than a few) you can see the streaks of blood from former lucky contestants lining the floor of the arena.

Such wholesome family fun for all...

Now, I have never found ANY Spanish person that admits to liking bullfights, yet if you asked them if they should be banned, the answer is almost always a quick and firm "no." Why is that? I think I would be a lot less insulted by the whole process if there weren't SO MANY PEOPLE involved in torturing and killing this animal. If the bull came in and it was just him and the matador, now THAT would be something. Not to say it isn't dangerous now, I've seen quite a few news reports with graphic video of a matador being gored... I'm sure that no matter how wounded the bull is, he's still pretty dangerous. But this is far from the norm. It's much more the norm to see half-runt bulls come in to be tortured by 9 guys for the enjoyment of thousands in the stands and millions on TV...

Did you know in Portugal they have another form of bullfighting where the bull doesn't die? He's not even really injured, just tired out enough so they can grab his tail? I saw it on "Rick Steve's" once...

Okay, I'm done venting...

-Russ

I was never aware of the brutality of the bull fight. I had heard some people arguing about it, but I just passed it off as animal activist nuts. Thanks for letting us know how it is. Next time I am in Spain I will pass on the bull fight.

Hey Russ,

Just a couple of comments; just because some bullfights are televised that doesn't make them a sport like soccer or baseball. Big Brother is also televised but it's hardly a sport.

The reason for the capes being pink or red is not so the public can't see te gore in all its awfulness, it's because those colours are the best to attract the bull.

I DO NOT LIKE bullfights, I really wished they didn't exist(even though my parents met at one, he, he!), but let's face it, it is quite unrealistic to think that this tradition has any chance of dissapearing any time soon if you consider the fact that a very high percentage of people still call them 'La Fiesta Nacional'!.

Hi, I strongly dislike bullfighting too and I'm pro banning but, being realistic, this is something that will have to wait 1 or 2 generations (not more) "pero caerá por su propio peso". Bullfighting isn't that popular as you may think, less by far than soccer (the real national sport)and especially, young people aren't interested in it. Let's say, either you go frecuently because you're "in that world" or you've grown up in that culture (and that's a really small percentage) or you never go (or maybe you've been once), the word "sometimes" is not used.
By being in that world, I mean there's a lot of money involved: bullfighters, their managers, cattle dealers and so on and they don't want their loved business to fall down.

Pim!

Bulls are colorblind!!! Only rods in their eyes, no cones. They're attracted by the movement of the cape only.

;-)

-Russ

Are they? I didn't know that. And I'm sure they didn't know it either back in the day when they were deciding what ought to be the colour of the capes, and that the 'toreros'' tights would be bright pink!

Pim, my guess it that the red cape has nothing at all to do with attracting the bull's attention, simply seeing a man in tights is probably doing the job nicely!

Jo

hmmm...kind of sad to see that someone lucky enough to live in Madrid can't appreciate something that's such a part of the culture there.

Leche,
Just because someone, in your opinion, is "lucky enough to live in Madrid", doesn't obligate them to agree with everything a country has to offer culturally. Sometimes cultures have their dark sides. What is it exactly that you appreciate about tauromaquia?

Appreciating something that is deep seated in a culture does not necessarily entail enjoying it yourself Nevado. Rather, understanding that to many Spaniards it is something very important should bring to you some sense of understanding. I personally think it's fine...I'm not a big fan but from the bull's point of view I would rather not just be made into hamburger.

Leche,

What part of that spectacle of gore would you like me to appreciate? Sounds like you really didn't read my post, but just decided to comment on how culturally unaware I am out of some sort of general defense of Spanish culture. Be rest assured that there are LOTS of things that I don't appreciate about living in here Spain, with bullfighting being the least of my dislikes.

And as for being lucky enough to live in Madrid? You're dreaming. It's not all dafodils and roses living in another country and Madrid is far from a perfect city. Somewhere with better weather, more culture, more diversity, more history (Madrid's only about 100 years older than Boston, unlike Rome, Paris, London, etc.) or simply an ocean view or some GREEN grass would probably suit my tastes a little more.

Here's a good book you might want to check out: Cities of the Imagination: Madrid, by Elizabeth Nash . It'll give you a bit more perspective on Spanish culture and Madrid than I think you have now.

Here's the intro:

"Few people are likely to fall in love with Madrid for its appearance alone. Spread out over a flat, dusty and largely featureless landscape, and without the compensation either of a proper river, or of a generally distiguished architecture, Madrid is a city whose charms are not immediately obvious. From at least the nineteenth century onwards foreigners have unfailingly commented on its scarcity of major old monuments, on its uniform brash modernity, and on the way it fails to live up to stereotypical notions of romantic Spain. Today's tourists tend to compare it unfavorably with Barcelona, while most Spaniards from outside Madrid criticize not only for its look, but also its climate of extremes, its proverbially arrogant people and even its food, which, in the words of the fictional Catalan detective Pepe Carvalho, "has given no more than a stew, an omelette, and a dish of tripe to the gastronomic culture of our country."

She goes on to say that it's an acquired taste. Something, unless you've actually lived here, I doubt you can acquire, seeing as how I have yet to after two years.

-Russ

Lived there for a couple of years....sorry, guess I was just venting too...

thanks for the book recommendation....I'll check it out.

Although I visited Boston, I don't remember very well now, I remember better London, I think the feelling of being in an old city could be the same, even I would vote for Madrid, although it may be younger, but its neighbourghoods of XVIth century, the narrow streets, etc.. have still an old taste. Of course it doesn't look as old as other cities, but I think old enough. Anyway it's much older than Boston, although the oldest monuments we'll find are from XVIth century, the city was much older, but it wasn't important until Felipe II brought here the court because it was in the center. The arab wall is an example of how old the city is. Unfortunately some big fires destroyed great parts of the city in the past.

I don't want to be chauvinistic as I really prefer other Spanish cities than Madrid and I realize that other cities like Paris, Barcelona or Rome have much better monuments. I just wanted to inform about the age issue of the city.
For me, the best of living in Madrid, is that you're not so far for any place in Spain, and that the cultural movement is acceptable.

About the bullfighting thing, just to say that almost of the times I find it boring and gore but not when the bullfighter makes a really good task. It's a hot topic, we can talk about that, it has some pros as the consevation of the brave cattle, that would dissapear if it wasn't because all the money they have around.

thanks for that info Miguelito....I would like to learn more about the origins of Madrid. As for the bullfighting...I find the spectacle of it within the culture much more exciting that the actual 'sport' itself.

I don't like bullfights, but I know that people who "understand" them see more than a guy killing a bull in a cruel way.

I believe that it will stop soon, people don't care anymore, but I believe it is up to the coutry to decide that (unless George Bush decides that it is time to bomb Spain to stop the cruelty )

Anyway, you have the option of changing the chanel if you don't want to see one .

LostInMadrid, reading your porst it seems you dislike Madrid, may I ask you why are you living there?

Nuria

Hey Leche!

Okay, no more venting. I'm glad you lived here for as long as I have so far so you know what it's like.

Here's a quick bit of basic history of Madrid from the book that I suggested above and other sources:

Everyone knows that in 1469 Isabel and Ferdinand joined their kingdoms and created modern Spain after they finally defeated the Moors at Grenada in 1492. This was also the year that Columbus discovered (no quotes, I hate that) the Americas for Spain thus making the country very rich and quickly the most powerful country in the world. After Ferdinand died in 1516, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V took over rule of Spain and a bunch of other countries, but it isn't until his son Felipe II arrives that Madrid really starts to take shape. (Though the Catholic Monarchs lived in Madrid occasionally and built a monastery in 1478 (San Jeronimo el Real), the town was really a backwater and only had about 3,000 residents until almost 100 years later.)

"Felipe II came to the throne in 1556 as the most powerful monarch in the world. He inherited from his father the Holy Roman Empreror Charles V, who ruled as Carlos I of Spain, an international empire that included most of Western Europe, South American and important posessions in Asia."

Felipe decided to move the capital of his Empire to Madrid in order to escape the politics and powerful familes of Segovia and Toledo and "to sap power from larger metropolisis like Seville and Valladolid." Being almost perfectly geographically located in the center of the country made the location perfect. He built his capital at the old fortess of the Alcazar and a second residence in the Buen Retiro near the monastery, and started construction of El Escorial to the North of the city.

During Felipe II's reign, the population grew from 3,000 to around 25,000 people. If you ever wonder why there's a statue of Felipe in Plaza Mayor in Madrid, it's because without Felipe, there would basically be no Madrid. - This is wrong, see below. -Russ

However, the end of the 16th century wasn't particulary kind to Spain and they started losing power, the Armada was defeated, and their economy collapsed. In 1601 the capital even moved for six years to Valladolid.

During the 1600s, Spain's "Golden Age", the population of Madrid soared to 100,000 and many of the landmarks in the center of the city were built including the Plaza Mayor, the Town Hall, the Puente de Segovia and a bunch of the monasteries. This is the time of Cervantes and Velazquez among others. (Boston, by the way, was founded around this time in 1640.)

In 1700, Charles II died without leaving an heir leading to the twelve year War of Succession. The Bourbon Felipe V, grandson of Louis XIV took over and brought Spain back from the brink of ruin by implementing a French style central government. Madrid during this time took on many French "embellishments." However, it was in 1759 when Charles III ("Madrid's first and best Mayor") came to power that the city got its most profound improvements. Large boulevards, fountains, a sewer system and a variety of monuments such as the Puerte de Acala, the Palacio de Correos, the Botanical Gardens and the Prado Museum were all constructed under his reign.

In 1808 the French came in and blew some stuff up, but not too badly.

In the mid 1800s the city expanded into Chamberi and Salamanca districts, created in a grid system. Also the first railway between Madrid and Aranjuez was opened, Canal de Isabel II was built, Teatro de la Opera, the Congreso de los Diputados and National Library were constructed.

At the end of the 1800s Madrid finally got electric lights quickly followed by the telephone, but the residents joy at these things were quickly squelched by a quick revolution and a small war with the U.S. (I'm kidding...)

Alfonso XIII took control of Spain at the beginning of the 20th century and this is when the big-ass buildings along Gran Via were built in the image of American style sky-scrapers. In 1919 the Metro opened and in 1929 the Telefonica building was built.

Madrid resisted Franco's military takeover in Spain's civil war, but eventually fell in 1939. During Franco's reign the people from the poorer regions of spain flocked to Madrid. In 1960 there were 2 million, by 1970 the population had increased to 3 million. Besides the the zillions of block-size apartment housing promoted by Francos government, Madrid has done a pretty good job of erasing Franco from its history. The only statue left of Franco is near the beginning of the his AZCA region in the north of the city beginning near the Bernebeau Stadium and going north to Plaza Castilla. Now called the Paseo de La Castellana, this was once called Avenida Generalismo Franco. He died in 1975 and Juan Carlos, Alfonso XIII's grandson came back and Spain became a democracy and everyone lived happily ever after.

(Okay so the last part's a bit quick, but I got sick of looking this stuff up... ;-) )

Nuria, I live in Madrid because that's where my wife is. And since she's 8.5 months pregnant so we're not going anywhere for a while.

Doesn't keep me from bitching about Madrid online to keep me sane, though. And hey, it keeps the forum balanced. Besides, even though I'm a bitter whining jerk doesn't mean anyone needs to take me seriously...

Do you have any idea how beautiful San Francisco is? It's SUCH a hard thing to take to come to Madrid after having an apartment with a view of the Golden Gate... And my wife HATES Barcelona, though, which would be the closest Spanish equivalent (pure Madrileña, I tell you). Lisbon is pretty nice, though, just not Spain.

;-)

-Russ

I'm dying to go to San Francisco!
Congratulations on your baby!
I bitched a lot about the "American Life Style" when I came here... but, oh boy, you finally get to love America/Americans... now I just [censored] to get my husband angry

About the horse in the Plaza Mayor, I think the man on it is Felipe III, maybe Felipe IV, but I'm almost sure it's not Felipe II.
Anyway, you're not the only one who don't like Madrid, that's why thousands of us go outside everytime there is a possibility, I'm fearing for the 1st of May traffic jams. But I don't think I would change it for a bigger city, that's what drowns?? me.
Congratulations for your baby, it's almost out.

Doh!

You're right! It's Felipe III, I just looked it up. Sorry, I thought I was making a good point because I thought that Felipe II used the plaza for Inquisition stuff... however I was completely mistaken.

Plaza Mayor wasn't even built until 1619... It was built on the site of a lake bed outside the walled gates before it was incorporated into the city. The statue was created in 1608 by Giambologna/Tacca and was out in the Casa del Campo until 1847 when it was moved to the plaza.

Sorry about that! Nash mixes it up quite a bit in her book (each chapter is about a theme, not a timeframe). So even though Felipe II was the most involved in the Inquisition during the late 1400s to the early 1500s, Plaza Mayor was still used to execute heretics 100+ years later, thus my confusion...

Thanks for pointing that out.

-Russ

Just got to shoot my mouth off - again.
San Francisco is one of the world's greatest cities - I've lived there;
Boston has some charm but zip - nil - nada warmth when it comes to the inhabitants - alot of truth in the "cold New Englander";
Madrid - definately not perfect - but I'd move in a heart-beat -
anyone want to swap places????

Thanks for the info Russ...I ordered the book. yes, San Fran's nice.....if you don't mind paying $8 for a donut

Being a hard nosed East coast kinda gal, I have to say that yes, San Francisco is beautiful! It´s lovely! It´s too freaking expensive!! And the people there are too friendly....in a freaky kinda way...

I mean c´mon, who ever heard of their bus drivers greeting the passengers with a cheery "good morning! How are you doing today?" Being so used to the grumpy SEPTA drivers in Philadelphia, I almost fell off the bus backwards when I was greeted in such a humanely way in San Francisco!!

I´m dying for the day when we can get back to San Fran!!

P.S. What does San Francisco have to do with bullfighting anyway? Did you know there are bull fights in Nevada AND Korea??

I know this topic has been covered in the past, bullfighting is an art, not a sport nor a gory spectecal. No two buulfights are identical, and no two toreros are equal in style and techinque. The corridas from Sevilla have been generally quite entertaining, and I have enjoyed watching them. As for those who find it cruel, I can only offer this little reminder- Don´t watch them. For those who prefer to ban them on grounds that they are cruel- Stop eating meat products, stop wearing leather, since animals killed for consumtion did not exactly recieve tranquilzer before being dipatched. Toros bravos were raised to be killed, they are not people, they do not dream about retiring in the Hamptons or traveling to the Canaries. I hope we can agree to disagree on this topic, and let Spaniards decide the fate of the corridas, not a handful of radical animal right activists from abroad who wish to ban the burger.

My two cents...

I don't like the Corridas de Toros (Bullfighting) but I apreciate it as an art. Nobody can't say that it has not a cruel face, but you should go further and see that there is something more. The spectacle is not focused on how bloody is to kill the bull, but how the torero (bullfighter) has a power relation with the bull.

Keep in mind this: This bulls are (as Shawn says) bred for bullfighing, they are a very very special kind of which there are not a great number. The "toro de lidia" would have dissapeared from Spain if it was not bred for bullfighting.

And then, the meat of the bull is sold to markets, so people can eat its meat, and prepare typical recipes as "rabo de toro".

How do you think a cow or a sheep is killed? The cut their neck and let them blood.

Sincerely, I would be more preocupated on the people that is being killed in Palestina and other places of the world than for an animal (though I would like them to be killed with as less pain as possible).

You don't have to enjoy bullfighting (I don't) just don't see it only as killing a bull in a bloody manner.

Fernando

I think we're mixing up two different issues here--they are:

1) Should there be bullfights?

and

2) Should there be bullfights on television?

TV researchers in this country (of which my husband is one!) might suggest that adding to the violence on television is generally a bad idea, particularly when these events are broadcast during times (evenings, weekends?) when children are watching. Whether it's real violence (in the tradition of reality television or violent sports like bullfighting--where people or animals really get hurt) or fake violence (wrestling, many police dramas--where people or animals only seem to get hurt) probably matters less...when you're 5, it looks pretty similar.

"Six prominent medical groups (American Academy of Pediatrics, American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry, American Psychological Association, American Medical Association, American Academy of Family Physicians and the American Psychiatric Association) warn of these effects of media violence on children:

Children will increase anti-social and aggressive behavior.
Children may become less sensitive to violence and those who suffer from violence.
Children may view the world as violent and mean, becoming more fearful of being a victim of violence.
Children will desire to see more violence in entertainment and real life.
Children will view violence as an acceptable way to settle conflicts.
(Congressional Public Health Summit, 2000)."
(From National Institute on Media and the Family website )

And there is always the counterargument that you can change the channel...but does that really happen? If abuelo is watching the corrida, will little María switch it off?

One glimmer of hope that comes out of the TV violence research is that TALKING with children about violence they see on TV really helps to lessen these effects (glamorizing, desensitizing, normalizing). Of course, in most cases the talking would be about how the violent behavior on TV wouldn't be appropriate in real life, or in OUR family, in OUR school, in OUR neighborhood (what kind of underlying message this sends is a different topic altogether). With bullfighting, the only response to the violent images is to say, "yes, those are real, and some people find it entertaining."

Anyway, whether the fights continue to exist in the ring or not, putting them on television seems to me to be a bad idea. If I want to see one (and I have seen just one, which was enough), I can pay to go.

And I am sure someone will point out that these violence effects are more likely to happen in cases of person-to-person violence...but I would argue that violence against animals is seen by most psychologists as a gateway behavior, leading in many cases to later aggression toward people. I don't know what the possible effects of community-sanctioned violence against animals would be.

Again, no Spaniard would ever consider or call bullfighting a sport!!!
(I don't think )

agreed

That may be so...but it's probably presented on television as a sport, with announcer commentary and views of the crowd's reactions. Maybe a better word would be "spectacle," as used in several previous posts?

Interesting topic. I have been lucky enough to travel to Madrid a fair amount, and I have never attended a bullfight. I saw several on Television last summer. I have to say, I don't think they are going to cause a child to turn violent. I think television in general is bad for kids, and think 4 hours is too much -- a month.

I don't enjoy seeing any animal hurt. But put it in perspective. The bull lives nearly a perfect life and then is killed in about 15 minutes. Compared to the life of any beef animal in the US, I have to believe the US animals would trade in a heartbeat. I can't speak for other countries, but we treat livestock pretty poorly, and cause a lot of pain in their roughly two years of life. Just the transport in my mind would be worse than anything a fighting bull goes through. I don't eat much red meat, and no veal. The life of a veal calf is horrible. Dairy cows do a bit better, until they quit producing milk at an acceptable rate, then they get to go through the same travel agent. And the destination is the same. (A bit better assuming that you don't think they mind having their annual calf removed at birth; or that raising that calf in isolation with "milk replacement" out of a bottle is perfectly humane.) For the record I once ran a small cow-calf operation and had personal experience with the process. I have also observed feedlots, but have never visited a slaughter house.