Leche,

What part of that spectacle of gore would you like me to appreciate? Sounds like you really didn't read my post, but just decided to comment on how culturally unaware I am out of some sort of general defense of Spanish culture. Be rest assured that there are LOTS of things that I don't appreciate about living in here Spain, with bullfighting being the least of my dislikes.

And as for being lucky enough to live in Madrid? You're dreaming. It's not all dafodils and roses living in another country and Madrid is far from a perfect city. Somewhere with better weather, more culture, more diversity, more history (Madrid's only about 100 years older than Boston, unlike Rome, Paris, London, etc.) or simply an ocean view or some GREEN grass would probably suit my tastes a little more.

Here's a good book you might want to check out: Cities of the Imagination: Madrid, by Elizabeth Nash . It'll give you a bit more perspective on Spanish culture and Madrid than I think you have now.

Here's the intro:

"Few people are likely to fall in love with Madrid for its appearance alone. Spread out over a flat, dusty and largely featureless landscape, and without the compensation either of a proper river, or of a generally distiguished architecture, Madrid is a city whose charms are not immediately obvious. From at least the nineteenth century onwards foreigners have unfailingly commented on its scarcity of major old monuments, on its uniform brash modernity, and on the way it fails to live up to stereotypical notions of romantic Spain. Today's tourists tend to compare it unfavorably with Barcelona, while most Spaniards from outside Madrid criticize not only for its look, but also its climate of extremes, its proverbially arrogant people and even its food, which, in the words of the fictional Catalan detective Pepe Carvalho, "has given no more than a stew, an omelette, and a dish of tripe to the gastronomic culture of our country."

She goes on to say that it's an acquired taste. Something, unless you've actually lived here, I doubt you can acquire, seeing as how I have yet to after two years.

-Russ

Lived there for a couple of years....sorry, guess I was just venting too...

thanks for the book recommendation....I'll check it out.

Although I visited Boston, I don't remember very well now, I remember better London, I think the feelling of being in an old city could be the same, even I would vote for Madrid, although it may be younger, but its neighbourghoods of XVIth century, the narrow streets, etc.. have still an old taste. Of course it doesn't look as old as other cities, but I think old enough. Anyway it's much older than Boston, although the oldest monuments we'll find are from XVIth century, the city was much older, but it wasn't important until Felipe II brought here the court because it was in the center. The arab wall is an example of how old the city is. Unfortunately some big fires destroyed great parts of the city in the past.

I don't want to be chauvinistic as I really prefer other Spanish cities than Madrid and I realize that other cities like Paris, Barcelona or Rome have much better monuments. I just wanted to inform about the age issue of the city.
For me, the best of living in Madrid, is that you're not so far for any place in Spain, and that the cultural movement is acceptable.

About the bullfighting thing, just to say that almost of the times I find it boring and gore but not when the bullfighter makes a really good task. It's a hot topic, we can talk about that, it has some pros as the consevation of the brave cattle, that would dissapear if it wasn't because all the money they have around.

thanks for that info Miguelito....I would like to learn more about the origins of Madrid. As for the bullfighting...I find the spectacle of it within the culture much more exciting that the actual 'sport' itself.

I don't like bullfights, but I know that people who "understand" them see more than a guy killing a bull in a cruel way.

I believe that it will stop soon, people don't care anymore, but I believe it is up to the coutry to decide that (unless George Bush decides that it is time to bomb Spain to stop the cruelty )

Anyway, you have the option of changing the chanel if you don't want to see one .

LostInMadrid, reading your porst it seems you dislike Madrid, may I ask you why are you living there?

Nuria

Hey Leche!

Okay, no more venting. I'm glad you lived here for as long as I have so far so you know what it's like.

Here's a quick bit of basic history of Madrid from the book that I suggested above and other sources:

Everyone knows that in 1469 Isabel and Ferdinand joined their kingdoms and created modern Spain after they finally defeated the Moors at Grenada in 1492. This was also the year that Columbus discovered (no quotes, I hate that) the Americas for Spain thus making the country very rich and quickly the most powerful country in the world. After Ferdinand died in 1516, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V took over rule of Spain and a bunch of other countries, but it isn't until his son Felipe II arrives that Madrid really starts to take shape. (Though the Catholic Monarchs lived in Madrid occasionally and built a monastery in 1478 (San Jeronimo el Real), the town was really a backwater and only had about 3,000 residents until almost 100 years later.)

"Felipe II came to the throne in 1556 as the most powerful monarch in the world. He inherited from his father the Holy Roman Empreror Charles V, who ruled as Carlos I of Spain, an international empire that included most of Western Europe, South American and important posessions in Asia."

Felipe decided to move the capital of his Empire to Madrid in order to escape the politics and powerful familes of Segovia and Toledo and "to sap power from larger metropolisis like Seville and Valladolid." Being almost perfectly geographically located in the center of the country made the location perfect. He built his capital at the old fortess of the Alcazar and a second residence in the Buen Retiro near the monastery, and started construction of El Escorial to the North of the city.

During Felipe II's reign, the population grew from 3,000 to around 25,000 people. If you ever wonder why there's a statue of Felipe in Plaza Mayor in Madrid, it's because without Felipe, there would basically be no Madrid. - This is wrong, see below. -Russ

However, the end of the 16th century wasn't particulary kind to Spain and they started losing power, the Armada was defeated, and their economy collapsed. In 1601 the capital even moved for six years to Valladolid.

During the 1600s, Spain's "Golden Age", the population of Madrid soared to 100,000 and many of the landmarks in the center of the city were built including the Plaza Mayor, the Town Hall, the Puente de Segovia and a bunch of the monasteries. This is the time of Cervantes and Velazquez among others. (Boston, by the way, was founded around this time in 1640.)

In 1700, Charles II died without leaving an heir leading to the twelve year War of Succession. The Bourbon Felipe V, grandson of Louis XIV took over and brought Spain back from the brink of ruin by implementing a French style central government. Madrid during this time took on many French "embellishments." However, it was in 1759 when Charles III ("Madrid's first and best Mayor") came to power that the city got its most profound improvements. Large boulevards, fountains, a sewer system and a variety of monuments such as the Puerte de Acala, the Palacio de Correos, the Botanical Gardens and the Prado Museum were all constructed under his reign.

In 1808 the French came in and blew some stuff up, but not too badly.

In the mid 1800s the city expanded into Chamberi and Salamanca districts, created in a grid system. Also the first railway between Madrid and Aranjuez was opened, Canal de Isabel II was built, Teatro de la Opera, the Congreso de los Diputados and National Library were constructed.

At the end of the 1800s Madrid finally got electric lights quickly followed by the telephone, but the residents joy at these things were quickly squelched by a quick revolution and a small war with the U.S. (I'm kidding...)

Alfonso XIII took control of Spain at the beginning of the 20th century and this is when the big-ass buildings along Gran Via were built in the image of American style sky-scrapers. In 1919 the Metro opened and in 1929 the Telefonica building was built.

Madrid resisted Franco's military takeover in Spain's civil war, but eventually fell in 1939. During Franco's reign the people from the poorer regions of spain flocked to Madrid. In 1960 there were 2 million, by 1970 the population had increased to 3 million. Besides the the zillions of block-size apartment housing promoted by Francos government, Madrid has done a pretty good job of erasing Franco from its history. The only statue left of Franco is near the beginning of the his AZCA region in the north of the city beginning near the Bernebeau Stadium and going north to Plaza Castilla. Now called the Paseo de La Castellana, this was once called Avenida Generalismo Franco. He died in 1975 and Juan Carlos, Alfonso XIII's grandson came back and Spain became a democracy and everyone lived happily ever after.

(Okay so the last part's a bit quick, but I got sick of looking this stuff up... ;-) )

Nuria, I live in Madrid because that's where my wife is. And since she's 8.5 months pregnant so we're not going anywhere for a while.

Doesn't keep me from bitching about Madrid online to keep me sane, though. And hey, it keeps the forum balanced. Besides, even though I'm a bitter whining jerk doesn't mean anyone needs to take me seriously...

Do you have any idea how beautiful San Francisco is? It's SUCH a hard thing to take to come to Madrid after having an apartment with a view of the Golden Gate... And my wife HATES Barcelona, though, which would be the closest Spanish equivalent (pure Madrileña, I tell you). Lisbon is pretty nice, though, just not Spain.

;-)

-Russ

I'm dying to go to San Francisco!
Congratulations on your baby!
I bitched a lot about the "American Life Style" when I came here... but, oh boy, you finally get to love America/Americans... now I just [censored] to get my husband angry

About the horse in the Plaza Mayor, I think the man on it is Felipe III, maybe Felipe IV, but I'm almost sure it's not Felipe II.
Anyway, you're not the only one who don't like Madrid, that's why thousands of us go outside everytime there is a possibility, I'm fearing for the 1st of May traffic jams. But I don't think I would change it for a bigger city, that's what drowns?? me.
Congratulations for your baby, it's almost out.

Doh!

You're right! It's Felipe III, I just looked it up. Sorry, I thought I was making a good point because I thought that Felipe II used the plaza for Inquisition stuff... however I was completely mistaken.

Plaza Mayor wasn't even built until 1619... It was built on the site of a lake bed outside the walled gates before it was incorporated into the city. The statue was created in 1608 by Giambologna/Tacca and was out in the Casa del Campo until 1847 when it was moved to the plaza.

Sorry about that! Nash mixes it up quite a bit in her book (each chapter is about a theme, not a timeframe). So even though Felipe II was the most involved in the Inquisition during the late 1400s to the early 1500s, Plaza Mayor was still used to execute heretics 100+ years later, thus my confusion...

Thanks for pointing that out.

-Russ

Just got to shoot my mouth off - again.
San Francisco is one of the world's greatest cities - I've lived there;
Boston has some charm but zip - nil - nada warmth when it comes to the inhabitants - alot of truth in the "cold New Englander";
Madrid - definately not perfect - but I'd move in a heart-beat -
anyone want to swap places????