No, this thread isn't about sex...though it will probably get around to it at some point.

I was grading student papers for a course I teach in infant development, and one of the questions (dealing with sleeping arrangements for parents and babies in America and in Guatemala) got me thinking...where do Spanish babies sleep? Here in the US, most sleep in their own rooms, in a crib...but there is a small (but growing) percentage of parents who prefer to have their babies sleep in bed with them. This is a subject of heated debate here...how about in Spain?

And the talk about getting two beds in most Spanish hotel rooms still has me puzzled...do most married couples have one bed or two? Or is is like here in America, where people share a bed until they get a bit older and HIS snoring drives HER into another room!?

Just wondering.
Tara

What a topic line, taravb!

Again, people help me out here, but in my experience babies sleep in their parents' room, next to the mother, in a bassinet or basket called a "Moises" (after Moses, who was found in the Nile in a basket...), because it's so very convenient for mid-night nursing. There's often a comfy chair there in the room for the same reason. I've never heard of any baby sleeping IN the bed with the parents. (I know it's done in the U.S. - The thought makes me shudder - what about strangulation?)As soon as the baby sleeps through the night, he/she goes to a crib in another room.

About the 2 beds or 1 - most married couples sleep in one bed. However, I've known a few with 2 beds - one was definitely due to advanced age and medical conditions, but the other was a young couple, and why has always been a total mystery to me. I didn't have the guts to ask, and neither did their close friends. It's still a mystery.... But not the norm.

The two bed thing is an interesting topic (and doesn´t stray from the who sleeps with whom topic...)

When we were bed shopping back in May (my first experience here), I was totally fascinated by the concept of having two twin sized mattresses that were outfitted for a shared bedframe. The bed(s) was definitely for the married couple. It´s selling point was that each person could raise or lower their side of the bed to their liking.

The other selling point was that because each of the mattresses were independent, when one tossed and turned in his/her sleep, the movements did not disturb the other.

Finally, the most unique feature of them all is that the mattresses sported a special zipper so that the two could be joined as one. Holy mattressmony!!!

ha ha ha!

Plus you get the added bonus of being able to actually MOVE the dumb things...we live in a small 1.5-story house, and it was such a trick to get the mattresses upstairs!

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: taravb ]

Come to think of it ... was it just my odd perception or are mattresses actually smaller and lighter in weight than they are here in the US? (as the Spanish would say, todo Americano ... a lo grande.)

I had the opportunity to sleep in "full" and "twin" size beds over there. The twin beds were small enough that I could reach the edge with my toes (unheard of here ... I am 5' 4") and when I would make the bed in the morning I could easily flip the mattress over, almost cot-like! The pillows were small as well.

I remember thinking that bedroom must just be sleeping room with the focus of the home really on social living spaces, at least in the way some of the older homes and apartments were designed. Perhaps that's why the bedrooms are so small, lacking closets even and requiring wardrobes.

Well in any case, if my perception is accurate, I would think that a couple sharing two twin beds would be in very snuggly holy mattresmony!

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: churrocaliente ]

Just a thought regarding infants sleeping in the same bed with the parents. Although it seems really strange for Americans, some studies have showed that instead of increasing the odds of smothering, etc, having the infant sleep with the parents actually decreases the likelihood of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. They think that the breathing and heartbeat of the parents help regulate that of the baby.

As an aside, at my former job we talked with Somali women about this issue. They generally keep the babies with them in bed- and nurse them - for a couple of years. None of them ever heard of a case of accidental smothering by the parents in their sleep. They said they were unconciously aware of the babies presence throughout the night, and it made nursing easier as well..

I've heard the same thing, Nicole, about the studies you mention. When my daughter was a tiny baby, she slept in bed with us for about 6 weeks. It's true, you're really conscious of the baby (this might be different for really sound sleepers). I liked knowing how she breathed, and we slept face-to-face most of the time. I think it's supposed to be something about the carbon dioxide from the mom that regulates the baby's breathing?

My husband wasn't as aware of her, though, so she stayed on my side of the bed. It made middle-of-the-night feedings much easier. At about 6 weeks, though, I wanted my space back and we moved her to a crib in our room.

Some developmental researchers link these early sleeping patterns to cultural trends toward individualism or collectivism...which is part of what got me wondering about Spanish sleeping patterns. It seems the American culture encourages the early development of self-sufficiency and independence (as opposed to interdependence) more than many, perhaps including Spain?

I have noticed that the mattresses in Spain are lighter, too...probably much easier to get into upper stories of buildings and through narrow stairwells!

Oh, Tara, now THAT'S an interesting topic! "It seems the American culture encourages the early development of self-sufficiency and independence (as opposed to interdependence) more than many, perhaps including Spain?"

I currently teach in a private school in the U.S., and we're reaching a crisis with the parents. They have so over-protected their children, to the point that by middle school the kids are often incapable of feeling any responsibility for their actions, find anything even slightly challenging to be too hard, and run to their parents with outrageous complaints about the school that their parents actually believe, no matter how ridiculous. Then these same parents come charging in to school insulting the teachers and demanding that everything be immediately changed to protect the self esteem of their beloved child. The fact is, the self esteem of these children is already low because they've never had the satisfaction of knowing that THEY are capable of doing things on their own, thanks to their meddling parents. In Madrid, when I taught both Spanish and American children (and many other nationalities as well)the Americans were the kids who needed the most help.

OK, I realise I'm making sweeping generalizations, and a private school environment in no way describes what's really happening in a culture, but pick up any women's magazine with a parenting article, and you'll see clues that over-protective and indulging parents are becoming a real problem here. So how does that compare to Spain? Kids ARE indulged a lot in Spain - especially with lots of hugs, kisses, and candy! - and sometimes it seems even more so than in the States. But at the same time, Spanish kids are allowed to walk out down the street alone or with friends or siblings by the time they are 5, without a worried mom believing he/she will be attacked, abused, or kidnapped. They go to the panaderia to buy the bread. They walk to school. They buy a merienda. They use public transportation. They play with their friends around the corner. They're not constantly hovered over by parents. They don't have to carry a walkie talkie when they're out of sight of the house, or "call as soon as you get there." But then again, an American parent will encourage a 2-year-old to run, whereas a Spanish parent may call, "Don't run! You may fall!" I'm not sure I'm really talking about independence as opposed to interdependence, but rather a mixture of ideas having to do with independence in general. Spanish kids strike me as being much more independent than American kids (although I base this on suburban kids, not city kids. They may be different. I'm definitly not an expert on this!) And is the self-sufficiency and independence Americans strive for in their lives as adults really helpful, as compared to the interdependence the Spaniards so clearly display within their own personal communities? What about the heart-aching loneliness of so many Americans?

Please excuse my ranting, but this is a fascinating topic!

This is a fascinating topic indeed.

Diana I was amazed when reading your post because it sounded like the behavior of some students and parents that I dealt with -- only this was in the university! (I used to teach composition and literature.)

It really was unbelievable how LITTLE responsibility these college-aged students wanted to take. (And this was a well-heeled private university in South Florida.) The most extreme example -- one student actually threatened with having his lawyer-father sue the teacher because he didn't pass the course and actually harassed the teacher for months. (I knew this case and the teacher was right.)

After a few semesters of teaching, I started to make make my students sign and date their class policies and procedures, which read like a legal document. Then they couldn't come to me at the end of the semester and say, "Oh I dind't know that I would fail if I didn't show up." Yes, someone actually said that!

I know these are sweeping generalizations, but it's interesting to speculate here: in general, my foreign students were much better at respecting the teacher, following class policies and meeting deadlines than their American counterparts. Even those who tried to cheat did it without being disrespectful to me -- even after I caught them red-handed.

It was a pleasure to work with the foreign students, especially the Hispanic and caribbean ones. Although they struggled with the language, it seemed like they knew they had to have their act together (or at least pretend like they did) without any of the whining and self-indulgent fussing of some of the American students.

I don't know why this is the way it is ... but surely how one's parents instill a sense of independence in us must have something to do with it. I don't teach anymore and in part it's because I didn't want to babysit young adults.

I'm not saying the American educational system is bad ... but boy oh boy I heard many Spaniards say that it was. I really had to defend myself in Spain and say hey, it produced me, you calling me stupid??? Then they would say, ah, you're not a typical American!

Now I know there are many good American students out there. But still, I had to admit to my friends in Spain that some American students didn't take their education seriously.

Many of my colleagues who taught at community colleges said that students were better behaved because they were more often than not the children of immigrants and truly realized the value of their education.


Gender and class also complicates this issue ... one could go on and on!!!

Churrito

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: churrocaliente ]

Churrocaliente... as a recent college grad., i had to respond to your post! you wrote

"It really was unbelievable how LITTLE responsibility these college-aged students wanted to take"...

I totally agree... I worked very hard during my 4 years in college and was always frustrated by the lack of interest in my peers, and their numerous attempts to get out of work or challenges... I was a Business/Spanish education double major, and having taken courses on how to teach, (which were taught mostly by Hispanic professors!) i began to see where many of the problems lie in our educational system and that, when compared to other countries, we're going way too easy on our kids... my college Spanish professor did excatly what you did as well ("I started to make make my students sign and date their class policies and procedures, which read like a legal document")... we always had to do this because of incidents like what you mentioned!!! my father is a college professor and he had a student once ask him if it was important that he be in class that day, because he really wanted to go play tennis... WHAT IS THAT?!?!

lastly, you said "I know these are sweeping generalizations".... but really, from what i've witnessed in the past four years (and i went to a private liberal arts college in upstate NY)... it may not be such a sweeping generalization... we've been coddled and protected and we're lazy and whiny (well, not me so much, but lotsa my peers)... there were those of us who actually did want to study and learn and do the work... but there's tons more who just want to complain and find a way around the work...

i can't really comment on how things are in spain 'cause my time there has been limited... but I think that on the whole there's a greater sense of responsibility there... people take responsibility and deal with the consequences of their actions in Spain much more so than we're willing to do here... it's very frustrating sometimes... people here seem to be very eager to blame someone else... to pass the buck...

i don't mean to stomp on my home... but there are some things that just don't always add up... and it shouldn't be bad to say so, right?

hope this was considered as a positive contribution to the topic?!?!

vieve

(anyone realize what the passing grade is at this point? for state tests??? in NY i think it's dropped to 65.... CRAZY!!!)

I agree with churrocaliente and vieve, to a large extent--I teach undergrads at two institutions, a large public university and a small liberal arts Lutheran college. In both places, many of my students are interested in doing the minimum that they need to do to get through the course. This leads, oftentimes, to an antagonistic relationship between instructor and student. I have had students ask whether they need to attend at all, and have even had a student come up to me in April (the course started in January) and ask who the instructor for the class was.

I require attendance in my courses, but am still flooded with excuses, from illness (legit) to having to work during ALL regular posted class times (then why did you sign up for my course?). It's really hard for a teacher who loves to teach to keep up her enthusiasm in the face of students who don't want to meet her halfway.

Part of the problem here is that our students are overextended...many, many of them work part-time or even full-time, and many don't get sufficient rest. They are frequently ill, too. I think some of that has to do with having become accustomed to a particular standard of living (from being at home with mom and dad, and perhaps even having additional income from a part-time job in high school) and not wanting to give it up.

I believe that they are busy and stressed, but I don't believe that they all need cars (we live in a town with very good public transit), fancy clothes, or their own apartment (with no roommates). It's hard for them to economize, though, because they see the culture going on around them and want to be part of it.

As for participation in and dedication to classes, I see that as partly the fault of the instructors and partly (probably mostly) the fault of the students. When I require attendance, my students do come, and do pay attention, and do learn. I have to force them to be there, but they (or many of them) WILL try once you get them past their desire to sleep in or work! Too many college teachers just stand at the front of the room and lecture in a monotone, then expect their students to be excited to learn! I try to teach to a variety of learning styles, using methods including lecture, discussion, group projects, in-class writing, etc.

Grades are another matter--students expect good grades for very little effort. A "C" is not average in any class nowadays--students think a "C" is a death sentence.

This may be different from in Spain, where it seems like less of a problem to fail the occasional exam. From what I have seen, students take failing a test as an indication that they need to study harder, not that there is something wrong with the test.

I could go on...but just to clarify what I meant above, it wasn't that American children are totally independent and not spoiled (because they are quite dependent and spoiled), but that there are other forces at work, like wanting children to be able to soothe themselves to sleep and wanting the marriage bed back for the couple's intimacy, not for nursing babies.

Very interesting topic.

Two things come to mind, vast numbers of high school grads in US go to college as far as possible from home, and vast amount of spanish students live home, and esp. young men can live home in to their late 20s early 30s, or until they get married.

I see somewhat of a contradiction with this and some of the earlier messages.

Zzuess-it's true, many college students in the U.S. leave home to go to college. However, college dorms are basically filled with kids losing their minds over their newfound independence(partying,binge-drinking,etc). Could be they're running screaming from their stifling womblike homes?
I've had the same experience in college as vieve. So many kids more intent on frat parties than their education.

I'm a middle school teacher now and this whole not taking responsibility thing is equally rampant in public schools and i think has less to do with class as it does just the whole American philosophy that seems so popular: blame someone else. I'd like to think at times that it's just the age group. They're kids, maybe they're still learning how to become responsible? But looking at alot of they adults they have as examples I'm less hopeful.
As vieve said, "i don't mean to stomp on my home... but there are some things that just don't always add up... and it shouldn't be bad to say so, right?" It' never bad to call something for what it is. It gives us the chance to improve it(I am an eternal optimist )

As far as Spanish boys living at home longer, they probably have a healthier relationships with their families which allow them to grow up to be their own independent persons instead of the constant domineering hovering that parents here in the states tend to do. I know in my family (we're Hispanic) none of us left the house before age 21 and yet we're all very independent. What at times seems a contradiction could actually make the most sense?

Oh and back to the topic! My sisters and myself slept with our mom as babies and when my sister had her son, he slept with her too. I think this may be more common in Mexican families in the U.S.?

What an interesting topic this one have become!
And how wrong I was, I had the idea than High School was easier in USA than in Spain, because lots of Spanish study a year there, but I thought that University was something really serious and harder than here, maybe because of places like Harvard, and although I have watched some films about colleges with toga parties and so on, I didn't give them credit, I thaught that almost of the people don't go to University and those who go study really hard.
About Spain I think we're going to something more similar to USA, each time students have to work less. When I went to University 8 years ago, the teacher didn't care too much if we attended the classes or not, but we knew that it was better for us to go if we wanted to pass the exams. The problem was when the teacher was not good enough and you thought that you would use better your time studying in the library or having a rest on the grass or in the cafeteria.
Although I was responsable for my studies and I passed very well almost of the subjects I know I could have done more, but there was a mix of conformism and desmotivation in my case. Probably was caused by the overcrowded classes and the desmotivation of the teachers, and my own way of being.

Now there is a great debate in Spanish education as the government is trying to change things.
There has been a new law for university and now they are talking about a new one for rising the quality in school and High School. I don't now them deeply, and it's not easy to think what is better, but I think that now basic education is really bad. What they are talking about is separate students in good students and bad students so this is very polemic.

As far as it comes to healthier relationships, sons/mothers-fathers etc , living at home longer,
it is quite subjective.
In many cases it cultivates dependency, difficulty in dealing with lifes ups and downs later on in life and maybe the biggest down side I see is the confusion young spanish man has as to whom he marries, his mother or somebody else, symbolicly speaking of course.

Authoritative mind set re womans place and role at home or in the society as a whole is not helped when independce of a young person , a man , is tied up too much in mothers acceptance of her place, and the daily reminder of fathers dominance in a relationship.

I think many people see what they WANT to see , when it comes to comparisons between various countries, ex spain/ US , family life, school, values etc.

Of course everyone has their own experiences and reasons to see these things their own way, but it does not mean one is better than other.