I'll DEFINITELY be doing MY part to boost tourism in, at least, Madrid if my bosses approve my request for leave. I hardly even care what the cost of my plane ticket will be (well, within reason, that is. hehehe) because I'm ready, willing, and ANXIOUS to return to Spain this Christmas/New Years!!! It's already been ONE YEAR since I was there last and am ITCHING to return. I can't wait!

Hopefully, things will ease and people will be filling the skies on their way to exotic locations around the world very very soon, including, ESPECIALLY, Spain!!

Saludos, MadridMan

For a merely economic point of view (which is only a part of the problem) if you don't fly you are hurting your own industry, as well as the tourism industry of the countries you would fly instead of staying home.

If you (as a collective) don't fly, then the airways companies must fire people, don't buy more planes, so plane builders must fire people, the travel agencies, suppliers and the economy in general (this is like a snow ball, becoming bigger and bigger) will go very bad.

When the american economy doesn't go well, then the world economy gets worse, and you know what happens then: more firings.

Keep things in perspective: How many planes crash every year? ten, no more. How many flights there are in a whole year? Near a million. Yes, it is very very sad when it happen, and in this case is more than sad, it is horrible.

I don't thing keeping from flying abroad is a good idea for your/our economy (but I understand and respect your way of reasoning). I will personally don't stop flying if I had the oportunity right now (which is not the case).

Fernando

MY loyalty is to first my country and it's own economy. I'm ready to fly - AND I'm ready to spend.

And to all those that choose to travel and spend outside - it's still a free country (much to the extremist's dismay) and it's the USA's most basic foundation to respect your choice. Go for it.

To me, what I choose is as important as why I choose it. Sure, I can rationalize why I should go ahead and take a jolly holiday in Spain. But like Fernando said: " When the american economy doesn't go well, then the world economy gets worse, and you know what happens then: more firings."

It has nothing to do with being afraid. I have absolutely no fear about choosing to stand behind my country. I'm not afraid that all these wonderful places in the world are going to dry up and disappear before I get to see them. I'm not afraid to say that it's time that I take this country seriously and not take it for granted. But that's me. You have to make your own choice, and you have to live with them. To me, taping a flag in my car window and singing the national anthem at the start of a football game just isn't enough. After all the sacrifice that's been made, I just couldn't look myself in the mirror if all I was doing was this superficial patiotism crap. I feel I could use to sacrifice a little, because I can honestly say I have really never EVER done it before (have any of you, really?) After all, freedom has never been free, and I have overlooked that for long enough, and I am CHOOSING to do right by the very country that gives me the opportunity to have a choice! (And I'm sure MM's ladyfriend and others can come up with a million distorted examples from my post why the US is hated so much, right?)

Pookita (who admits she may have alittle chip on her shoulder over this whole thing)

I wonder if ASTA has thought this through. If travel agents are going to convince their customers that it is safe to continue to use the airlines and travel abroad, it would seem to me that they might want to go to Spain and say to their customers, "business as usual." We went it's as safe as ever.

As mentioned already, this may cause more of a decline in the international travel industry, which will mean more jobs lost, not only abroad but here in the U. S. as well. If we do not continue to travel, the airlines will fail.

I believe that this is a time when we need to take a bold stance, and not allow terrorists to control our economies. Pookita is right, is we citizens want to help our country, spend, spend, spend!

My plans are still to be in Madrid and Andalucia during Christmas and New Year's,and on my way home we are stopping in New York. That is my dream. I hope Madrid Man that they give you your vacation! Maybe those of us that make it during the holidays can have some Cidra and Uvas during New Year's at the Puerta del Sol!

Just a short note to mention what ASTA stands for: AMERICAN Society of Travel Agents.

They are still flying, they are still having their congress, they are still going to spend .....but they are going to do it right HERE in the USA. I don't think anyone, here or abroad, can have any serious issue with their choice.

What message would you rather they send? That they are stereotypically self absorbed Americans who choose personal agendas over standing behind their country at a time when unity and patriotism are needed the most?

Pookita (with a heavy sigh and very heavy heart)

In answer to your question, sadly, I have more questions than answers. You are right of course, in a free society, its members have a right to determine their path, such as ASTA, such as yourself, and myself.

Based on the article Madrid Man shared, I wonder, how does ASTA, an association that has the inducement of international travel as one of its goals, ask the local folks to go where their organization fears to tread?

This will not only impact Seville, but it may also impact American travel agents and the travel industry as a whole.

I went to their website, and under the heading "Traveling Safely" they state the following: "As one of our greatest freedoms, travel adds knowledge and pleasure to our lives and is a great force for international goodwill and peace. ASTA recommends that to enjoy your journeys to the fullest extent, become an informed traveler. Work with an ASTA travel agent on your individual wants and needs for the best travel experience possible." ( cited online from http://www.astanet.com/travel/travelsafe.asp , October 09, 2001).

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I'm not certain that I see a connection between people being turned off to travel because ASTA modified their plans, and chose NYC as a place to go. To me, that was a patriotic gesture, not one to demean Seville, or Spain.

Then there's a point of security. Even our American athletes aren't playing games outside the U.S. and Canada for now. Yet, we'd ask roughly 4,000 Americans to congregate in Spain? Isn't that contradictory to the request our government has made for us to keep a low profile, and not invite an attack?

No! I agree with the decision they made. Individual travel, or in small groups is one thing, but to have 4,000 Americans attend a venue overseas is a smack in the face to our government. At this time, it doesn't seem like the right thing to do. I applaud ASTA and their decision. They made it, and didn't offer any specific reasons. They weren't looking for good publicity, they were just trying to do the right thing.

ASTA's representation is not world travel. It's all travel, and that includes travel throughout the United States. I'm glad to see they made the choice they did. It speaks highly for their commitment to our nation.

Wolf

Hi all.

I would want to give my point of view here (if you don't mind, because is an american internal issue).

It seems as if now in USA there are a collective attitude of being ideological policemen. I have heard some times in this board the idea "you should buy/spend/stay in America to be more patriotic". Is this patriotism? My point of view is that it is not.

It is chauvinism, and it is very dangerous way of spending your money; for your economy, and thus, for the economies of the rest of the world.

I'm sure that this "idological policemen attitude" will lead to a situation in which the majority of the americans will buy only american goods, will spend only in the USA and will not travel to other countries. For example, if McDonald's import some of it's meat from other country but Burger King not, then McDonald's will be accused to be less patriotic, and of course they will turn and buy american meat.

Thus, your economy will turn into an autocracy, a closed economy. This will disrupt the comercial balance, and the majority of the AMERICAN companies who survive by comercing with the rest of the world will be comdenmed to extinction.

Spain was an autocracy for 60 years, and that keep us from growing (we had, after that, only the 50% of the european average PIB per cápita).

Of course ASTA is free for moving to NYC, and their spanish counterparts ar free to complain, but that is not my point. What I mean is that a continued modification of your spending habits will lead your economy to a very dangerous situation. You want to do something patriotic? Yes, spend, but do it according your habits. If you spend you will boost internal consume and thus the economy will boost.

Who do you think you are making a favour when you buy an imported good? The american company who distributes it? The forgein company who sold it? Or both?

Moreover, travel agencies buy packs of hostel/hotel/apartment/flight rooms in advance, so keeping from traveling will let them with unoccupied, but already paid, places.

Said this, I still understand this "patriotic" feeling (although I don't obviously share it).

Regards.

Fernando

Fernando,

You have every right in the world to state your opinion. Many of us do it in reference to Spain, and we have no right suggesting you don't have the same right and responsibility to do the same. What you said also helps us in seeing ourselves from outside, and that's important in making good decisions.

I agree with you to a point. But the thought of sending 4,000 Americans to any singular location in the world at this time is only creating a specific target for terrorists. That would not help Spain, or the U.S. I'd hate to think something could happen there, even though I know the Spanish police would do everything in their power to insure it was safe. As an example of their great work, the safety at the Barcelona Olympics was fantastic!

I agree about not getting into a "buy American only" mode. That wouldn't help matters. At this point, we have so little that is truly "American made" that it probably couldn't happen anyway.

But, remember one thing. The U.S. has to generate money to support the homeland protection plans going into effect, and the cost of maintaining a strong military presence. We are a large nation, with mass travel from abroad, and internally by air, and have more coastline than any other nation to patrol. That costs a lot of money, and someone has to pay that bill. At the same time, the U.S. "must" increase their aid to nations like we've all agreed in earlier threads. That's more tax money. I know that's exactly what Pookita was referring to in her posts. That we have to consider all these aspects before we do the wrong thing.

If we don't begin a sincere campaign of "buying American" whenever it's feasible, where does this money come from? Even if we increased the basic income tax in the U.S. from 18% to 30%, and increased the higher tax from 28% to 40%, we wouldn't cover more than 25% of the total price we have to pay out, for the road that lays ahead. We have to get the additional taxes from businesses and industry.

As far as travel, I don't think Americans should quit traveling. I think we should go ahead with plans, and trust in our friends in nations like Spain, who will protect us, just like they would their own citizens, maybe a little better, because we are guests in their country. I just don't want to see 4,000 Americans climbing on planes heading for one particular spot, where they become a very large target.

As for me, I have "postponed," not cancelled our trip to Spain. Instead of going this fall, we will go next spring or summer, depending on what's right for us, and in keeping with what's right for our nation, and Spain as well.

I think you may have hit a valid point on us becoming ideological policemen. To a degree, I know I have. But I don't believe it's chauvinistic, I think it's realistic, since the majority of us don't "insist on compliance" to a specific "buy American only" philosophy. Fortunately that will probably never happen, but at the same time, I, like the vast majority of Americans, will do what we can to support our nation in this time of trouble. Let's hope that we don't unconsciously go past a respectable point.

The last thing we need here in the U.S. is to end up isolating ourselves away from the nations of the world who are standing beside us in the battle that lays ahead, not just in Afghanistan, but around the world, as we all take on terrorism as allies, instead of letting everyone fend for themselves.

It's warming to know that NATO is sending five AWACs to help us patrol our coastlines. It's the first time in history that Europe has sent their deterrent forces to help us on our homeland, and it's being received by us, as a grateful nation. It tells us just how close the nations of NATO are to us.

Here's a poem, written over two hundred years ago worth reading.
------------------------------------------
Totus In Uno
Mrs. Margaret B. Peeke, 1882

God gave to every land a charm
To hold her sons from straying;
A subtle power, to keep their hearts
The home land from betraying.

The Swiss he gave their mountains bold;
The South her perfumed flowers
And music like the songs of birds,
To gladden all her hours;
To France he gave the luscious vine;
Set German thoughts a swinging
Like ponderous bell of minster chime,
Through after ages ringing;
But to the land we call our own,
He gave his richest treasure;
Her freedom, boundless as the sea,
Her wealth that knows no treasure.
And all the charms of other lands,
Their hills, and songs, and flowers,
Make lonely hearts at home again,
Within this land of ours.

And God bless America,
When other lands are falling,
Because to Him, in every tongue
Her children will be calling.
From East and West, from North and South,
All nations here are joining
Their varied gifts, and out of this
A higher life is coining.

All hail, America, the blessed!
All lands in one combining,
Whose star so bright, through future years,
Shall evermore be shining.
-----------------------------

Remember, our Motto in the U.S. is:

E Pluribus Unum - Latin

It means; "Out of many, one." Maybe that's what we're all becoming. Not just America.

Wolf

[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: Wolfgang81 ]

Wolf, what an insightful post you wrote!

I read it but my college duties kept me from answering it early.

I have thought about the issue, and now I don't have more to add to what I posted before. You have a point. I fully understand it. But I am afraid I am right and this drives to a more closed America. I hope history will tell me how wrong I was.

Just remember you all that you are not alone. For the good times and the bad times you have a duty to protect your brothers in Europe, and you will find ourselves shoulder by shoulder when you need us. Perhaps we don't always agree, but then (as someone pointed to me privately) what's democracy indeed?

Fernando