Would I be right in saying that the souvenir shops in Spain will suffer because of the World Trade Centre Bombing? why? because when I went to Madrid in July I bought what some spanish friends of mine said to be "typical souvenirs of Spain" - the sword. It was 3,500pta , same size as a real sword but I would think if I was to buy another when i go to Madrid in Nov i would not be left on the plane with it, it would be seen as a danergous weapon, how will souvenir shops do there buisness now? I heard you cant bring a mens razor on a plane.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I think you can put it in your suitcase.
what they are worried is that passengers carry dangerous things to their seats.
and as suitcases or big packages are storaged in a different compartment of the plane there won't be a problem.

Rafael

I'm sure Rafael is correct. You can "check" a lot of different things in the luggage compartment, but you just can't take anything considered "dangerous" on the plane with you.

I think the tourism trade in Spain (and in most of the world) will be hurt for the next several months because of the fewer numbers of people traveling by plane. Sadly, I have heard from a few hostel owners telling stories of mass cancellations for rooms. Sad. Very sad. For many, tourism income is the ONLY income people have in Spain.

I'll take my chances, however. If my "request for leave" gets approved, I'll be on a plane to Madrid for the Christmas/New Years holiday!!!!! Threat or no threat, NO ONE is going to keep me from visiting my beloved Spain.

Saludos, MadridMan

MM - I'll post this in the proper place but wanted to let you know that, unless you already have your ticket, Delta and American are running deals - $311 Boston-MNadrid R/T throu end of Feb. '02.

Hi Puna, thanks for the info. I've already followed up on your posting in the "Transportation" forum. Unfortunately, I would fly during their blackout dates. NOW, my regular ticket has gone UP in price by $300 since last week - now it's $1,150!! OUCH! I might not go at all at this rate.

Regarding the tourism indurstry of Spain being hurt, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the shops would decide to shut down for the month of November (slower month) in preparation for the bigger Christmas season. We'll see what happens. I'm HOPING the airlines will impose INCENTIVES (i.e. LOWER PRICES!! ANYONE OUT THERE LISTENING??!!) to get people on airplanes for the holidays and spend our tourism dollars in Spain.

Years ago (1992) I brought back a Cristobal Colón 500th aniversary commemorative sword. They wouldn't allow me to carry it on then so I just checked it - no problem.

I just got back from Ireland (my overseas trips alternate between Spain & Ireland - in June I did both on one crossing). Tourism is taking a major 'hit' in Europe. Hotels, B&B's and airlines have all been affected a whole lot by the Sept 11 events. It looked to me that airline 'loading' is increasing a bit now for the TransAtlantic carriers. It may be just because they are slashing fares just to fill seats.

September is usually a big month for tourism in most parts of Europe: not this year!

The European airport staff follows the safety instructions to a tee, that´s for sure. I got back from a trip to Italy a fortnight previously and experienced a great difference in the control measures. I had my nail-scissors in the handbag and was told (at the Swedish airport) to either check them in or throw them away. Prefer flying safe, of course, so I didn´t mind it at all.

[copied from the What's New? portion of the Tourist Office of Spain website]

OFICINA ESPAÑOLA DE TURISMO
-----------------------------------
TOURIST OFFICE OF SPAIN
666 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10103

SPAIN SURPRISED, DISMAYED BY ASTA’S DECISION TO CANCEL 2001 CONGRESS

New York, September 26, 2001…. The Tourist Office of Spain announced today that it was shocked to learn from a report in a U.S. travel trade publication that the American Society of Travel Agents has negotiated to cancel its plans to hold its 2001 Congress in Seville. According to the report in Travel Agent Magazine, ASTA will now hold its Convention in New York City.

“We are dismayed, as should the entire travel industry be, that an organization which was once considered a pacesetter for international travel has chosen to give the message that international travel is no longer safe”, said Alvaro Renedo, Director of the Tourist Office of Spain in New York.

Spain’s tourism authorities met with the Chairman of the ASTA Convention, Ralph Ferrara, in Madrid on September 12, and were assured that the Congress would proceed as planned. Surprised by the announcement in the press, Mr. Renedo feels that ASTA’s decision to renege on that commitment is unconscionable. “It has hurt Spain - it has hurt the entire travel industry and specially travel agents who make a living from promoting international travel” he said. “Nonetheless, Spain continues to support President George Bush in the United States’ commitment to show its strength by returning to normalcy, and that includes the freedom of travel”, Renedo said. “In that regard, Spain will continue supporting more than ever American travel agents and tour operators”.

-end-

MadridMan,

I totally understand why they did it. Even though ASTA is saying travel is safe, it's their membership that counts. If they saw a 30% to 40% fall off in attendance it would have sent a worse message to the world, and Americans.

At this point, people are listening to the State Department's warning that Americans should either not travel to foreign nations, or should keep a low profile while they are there. Why should ASTA do differently?

There's always next year or the year after, when they can meet in Seville.

Wolf

I feel badly that ASTA has cancelled the Congress is Seville, but on the other hand I can appreciate and respect the decision. I too changed my plans to travel to Spain for my own reasons not completely based on danger. I'm sure ASTA has their reasons as well.

And, personally, I found Bin Laden's reference to not wanting another Andalusia to be chilling. Maybe the majority of ASTA members had the same reaction? Not fair, I know, but either are alot of things in the world right now. (And, go easy on me, I'm dealing with the anthrax thing down here - )

Pookita

I'll DEFINITELY be doing MY part to boost tourism in, at least, Madrid if my bosses approve my request for leave. I hardly even care what the cost of my plane ticket will be (well, within reason, that is. hehehe) because I'm ready, willing, and ANXIOUS to return to Spain this Christmas/New Years!!! It's already been ONE YEAR since I was there last and am ITCHING to return. I can't wait!

Hopefully, things will ease and people will be filling the skies on their way to exotic locations around the world very very soon, including, ESPECIALLY, Spain!!

Saludos, MadridMan

For a merely economic point of view (which is only a part of the problem) if you don't fly you are hurting your own industry, as well as the tourism industry of the countries you would fly instead of staying home.

If you (as a collective) don't fly, then the airways companies must fire people, don't buy more planes, so plane builders must fire people, the travel agencies, suppliers and the economy in general (this is like a snow ball, becoming bigger and bigger) will go very bad.

When the american economy doesn't go well, then the world economy gets worse, and you know what happens then: more firings.

Keep things in perspective: How many planes crash every year? ten, no more. How many flights there are in a whole year? Near a million. Yes, it is very very sad when it happen, and in this case is more than sad, it is horrible.

I don't thing keeping from flying abroad is a good idea for your/our economy (but I understand and respect your way of reasoning). I will personally don't stop flying if I had the oportunity right now (which is not the case).

Fernando

MY loyalty is to first my country and it's own economy. I'm ready to fly - AND I'm ready to spend.

And to all those that choose to travel and spend outside - it's still a free country (much to the extremist's dismay) and it's the USA's most basic foundation to respect your choice. Go for it.

To me, what I choose is as important as why I choose it. Sure, I can rationalize why I should go ahead and take a jolly holiday in Spain. But like Fernando said: " When the american economy doesn't go well, then the world economy gets worse, and you know what happens then: more firings."

It has nothing to do with being afraid. I have absolutely no fear about choosing to stand behind my country. I'm not afraid that all these wonderful places in the world are going to dry up and disappear before I get to see them. I'm not afraid to say that it's time that I take this country seriously and not take it for granted. But that's me. You have to make your own choice, and you have to live with them. To me, taping a flag in my car window and singing the national anthem at the start of a football game just isn't enough. After all the sacrifice that's been made, I just couldn't look myself in the mirror if all I was doing was this superficial patiotism crap. I feel I could use to sacrifice a little, because I can honestly say I have really never EVER done it before (have any of you, really?) After all, freedom has never been free, and I have overlooked that for long enough, and I am CHOOSING to do right by the very country that gives me the opportunity to have a choice! (And I'm sure MM's ladyfriend and others can come up with a million distorted examples from my post why the US is hated so much, right?)

Pookita (who admits she may have alittle chip on her shoulder over this whole thing)

I wonder if ASTA has thought this through. If travel agents are going to convince their customers that it is safe to continue to use the airlines and travel abroad, it would seem to me that they might want to go to Spain and say to their customers, "business as usual." We went it's as safe as ever.

As mentioned already, this may cause more of a decline in the international travel industry, which will mean more jobs lost, not only abroad but here in the U. S. as well. If we do not continue to travel, the airlines will fail.

I believe that this is a time when we need to take a bold stance, and not allow terrorists to control our economies. Pookita is right, is we citizens want to help our country, spend, spend, spend!

My plans are still to be in Madrid and Andalucia during Christmas and New Year's,and on my way home we are stopping in New York. That is my dream. I hope Madrid Man that they give you your vacation! Maybe those of us that make it during the holidays can have some Cidra and Uvas during New Year's at the Puerta del Sol!

Just a short note to mention what ASTA stands for: AMERICAN Society of Travel Agents.

They are still flying, they are still having their congress, they are still going to spend .....but they are going to do it right HERE in the USA. I don't think anyone, here or abroad, can have any serious issue with their choice.

What message would you rather they send? That they are stereotypically self absorbed Americans who choose personal agendas over standing behind their country at a time when unity and patriotism are needed the most?

Pookita (with a heavy sigh and very heavy heart)

In answer to your question, sadly, I have more questions than answers. You are right of course, in a free society, its members have a right to determine their path, such as ASTA, such as yourself, and myself.

Based on the article Madrid Man shared, I wonder, how does ASTA, an association that has the inducement of international travel as one of its goals, ask the local folks to go where their organization fears to tread?

This will not only impact Seville, but it may also impact American travel agents and the travel industry as a whole.

I went to their website, and under the heading "Traveling Safely" they state the following: "As one of our greatest freedoms, travel adds knowledge and pleasure to our lives and is a great force for international goodwill and peace. ASTA recommends that to enjoy your journeys to the fullest extent, become an informed traveler. Work with an ASTA travel agent on your individual wants and needs for the best travel experience possible." ( cited online from http://www.astanet.com/travel/travelsafe.asp , October 09, 2001).

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I'm not certain that I see a connection between people being turned off to travel because ASTA modified their plans, and chose NYC as a place to go. To me, that was a patriotic gesture, not one to demean Seville, or Spain.

Then there's a point of security. Even our American athletes aren't playing games outside the U.S. and Canada for now. Yet, we'd ask roughly 4,000 Americans to congregate in Spain? Isn't that contradictory to the request our government has made for us to keep a low profile, and not invite an attack?

No! I agree with the decision they made. Individual travel, or in small groups is one thing, but to have 4,000 Americans attend a venue overseas is a smack in the face to our government. At this time, it doesn't seem like the right thing to do. I applaud ASTA and their decision. They made it, and didn't offer any specific reasons. They weren't looking for good publicity, they were just trying to do the right thing.

ASTA's representation is not world travel. It's all travel, and that includes travel throughout the United States. I'm glad to see they made the choice they did. It speaks highly for their commitment to our nation.

Wolf

Hi all.

I would want to give my point of view here (if you don't mind, because is an american internal issue).

It seems as if now in USA there are a collective attitude of being ideological policemen. I have heard some times in this board the idea "you should buy/spend/stay in America to be more patriotic". Is this patriotism? My point of view is that it is not.

It is chauvinism, and it is very dangerous way of spending your money; for your economy, and thus, for the economies of the rest of the world.

I'm sure that this "idological policemen attitude" will lead to a situation in which the majority of the americans will buy only american goods, will spend only in the USA and will not travel to other countries. For example, if McDonald's import some of it's meat from other country but Burger King not, then McDonald's will be accused to be less patriotic, and of course they will turn and buy american meat.

Thus, your economy will turn into an autocracy, a closed economy. This will disrupt the comercial balance, and the majority of the AMERICAN companies who survive by comercing with the rest of the world will be comdenmed to extinction.

Spain was an autocracy for 60 years, and that keep us from growing (we had, after that, only the 50% of the european average PIB per cápita).

Of course ASTA is free for moving to NYC, and their spanish counterparts ar free to complain, but that is not my point. What I mean is that a continued modification of your spending habits will lead your economy to a very dangerous situation. You want to do something patriotic? Yes, spend, but do it according your habits. If you spend you will boost internal consume and thus the economy will boost.

Who do you think you are making a favour when you buy an imported good? The american company who distributes it? The forgein company who sold it? Or both?

Moreover, travel agencies buy packs of hostel/hotel/apartment/flight rooms in advance, so keeping from traveling will let them with unoccupied, but already paid, places.

Said this, I still understand this "patriotic" feeling (although I don't obviously share it).

Regards.

Fernando

Fernando,

You have every right in the world to state your opinion. Many of us do it in reference to Spain, and we have no right suggesting you don't have the same right and responsibility to do the same. What you said also helps us in seeing ourselves from outside, and that's important in making good decisions.

I agree with you to a point. But the thought of sending 4,000 Americans to any singular location in the world at this time is only creating a specific target for terrorists. That would not help Spain, or the U.S. I'd hate to think something could happen there, even though I know the Spanish police would do everything in their power to insure it was safe. As an example of their great work, the safety at the Barcelona Olympics was fantastic!

I agree about not getting into a "buy American only" mode. That wouldn't help matters. At this point, we have so little that is truly "American made" that it probably couldn't happen anyway.

But, remember one thing. The U.S. has to generate money to support the homeland protection plans going into effect, and the cost of maintaining a strong military presence. We are a large nation, with mass travel from abroad, and internally by air, and have more coastline than any other nation to patrol. That costs a lot of money, and someone has to pay that bill. At the same time, the U.S. "must" increase their aid to nations like we've all agreed in earlier threads. That's more tax money. I know that's exactly what Pookita was referring to in her posts. That we have to consider all these aspects before we do the wrong thing.

If we don't begin a sincere campaign of "buying American" whenever it's feasible, where does this money come from? Even if we increased the basic income tax in the U.S. from 18% to 30%, and increased the higher tax from 28% to 40%, we wouldn't cover more than 25% of the total price we have to pay out, for the road that lays ahead. We have to get the additional taxes from businesses and industry.

As far as travel, I don't think Americans should quit traveling. I think we should go ahead with plans, and trust in our friends in nations like Spain, who will protect us, just like they would their own citizens, maybe a little better, because we are guests in their country. I just don't want to see 4,000 Americans climbing on planes heading for one particular spot, where they become a very large target.

As for me, I have "postponed," not cancelled our trip to Spain. Instead of going this fall, we will go next spring or summer, depending on what's right for us, and in keeping with what's right for our nation, and Spain as well.

I think you may have hit a valid point on us becoming ideological policemen. To a degree, I know I have. But I don't believe it's chauvinistic, I think it's realistic, since the majority of us don't "insist on compliance" to a specific "buy American only" philosophy. Fortunately that will probably never happen, but at the same time, I, like the vast majority of Americans, will do what we can to support our nation in this time of trouble. Let's hope that we don't unconsciously go past a respectable point.

The last thing we need here in the U.S. is to end up isolating ourselves away from the nations of the world who are standing beside us in the battle that lays ahead, not just in Afghanistan, but around the world, as we all take on terrorism as allies, instead of letting everyone fend for themselves.

It's warming to know that NATO is sending five AWACs to help us patrol our coastlines. It's the first time in history that Europe has sent their deterrent forces to help us on our homeland, and it's being received by us, as a grateful nation. It tells us just how close the nations of NATO are to us.

Here's a poem, written over two hundred years ago worth reading.
------------------------------------------
Totus In Uno
Mrs. Margaret B. Peeke, 1882

God gave to every land a charm
To hold her sons from straying;
A subtle power, to keep their hearts
The home land from betraying.

The Swiss he gave their mountains bold;
The South her perfumed flowers
And music like the songs of birds,
To gladden all her hours;
To France he gave the luscious vine;
Set German thoughts a swinging
Like ponderous bell of minster chime,
Through after ages ringing;
But to the land we call our own,
He gave his richest treasure;
Her freedom, boundless as the sea,
Her wealth that knows no treasure.
And all the charms of other lands,
Their hills, and songs, and flowers,
Make lonely hearts at home again,
Within this land of ours.

And God bless America,
When other lands are falling,
Because to Him, in every tongue
Her children will be calling.
From East and West, from North and South,
All nations here are joining
Their varied gifts, and out of this
A higher life is coining.

All hail, America, the blessed!
All lands in one combining,
Whose star so bright, through future years,
Shall evermore be shining.
-----------------------------

Remember, our Motto in the U.S. is:

E Pluribus Unum - Latin

It means; "Out of many, one." Maybe that's what we're all becoming. Not just America.

Wolf

[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: Wolfgang81 ]

Wolf, what an insightful post you wrote!

I read it but my college duties kept me from answering it early.

I have thought about the issue, and now I don't have more to add to what I posted before. You have a point. I fully understand it. But I am afraid I am right and this drives to a more closed America. I hope history will tell me how wrong I was.

Just remember you all that you are not alone. For the good times and the bad times you have a duty to protect your brothers in Europe, and you will find ourselves shoulder by shoulder when you need us. Perhaps we don't always agree, but then (as someone pointed to me privately) what's democracy indeed?

Fernando

Heard on CNN the other day that NATO has either planes or ships helping patrol the US eastern seaboard. Fernando's quote is more than timely - "Just remember you all that you are not alone. For the good times and the bad times you have a duty to protect your brothers in Europe,and you will find ourselves shoulder by shoulder when you need us."

Topic: "Spanish tourist industry hurt?"

I know that when/if *I* get approved for the leave and the airfare isn't $1,200 R/T from Columbus, Ohio to Madrid that my USDollars will be going into the Spanish (and "American") tourism industry. I imagine European travelers will still be likely to visit Spain even during this difficult time. It's those from North American which will be a bit less likely to travel anywhere overseas for the next few months. Shame, really.

When in Spain, I plan to buy shoes, a belt or two, stay in a few hotels or hostels, buy champagne and grapes for New Years Eve, a number of meals, and MANY tapas and drinks. Mmmm.. That's how MY money will help Spanish tourist industry.

:o Okay - back on to the original topic of this thread!
I agree with you MM - I, too, will be spending my not-so-extra-cash on an airline ticket, hostels, great food and wine - and, of course, on shoes, purses, etc. Nothing is about to deter my love for Spain nor my intention to spend a month there again ASAP.
As so many have said - we are one world, in many ways one economy .... and, oh boy, will I do my part!
BTW - I know you are planning on flying during the close-out dates - but is there any way you can hedge it by one day either side and get quite substancial savings? $1200+ just seems way to high!

Well, no one is more p.o.-ed than my Santiago riding-mate that the ASTA conference was cancelled. He was planning to go to peddle some HP Jornadas and other computer gadgets at the expo, and now has been rerouted. I was hoping he could do some recon for our trip in April...WHICH WILL GO FORWARD AS PLANNED, NO THANKS TO YOU MR. TERRORIST JERKS!!!

I'm with you Puna, I'm ready to spend...and I'm not changing my life plans for some idiots who don't value life or any kind of fun or diversion. I'll proudly be wearing my US flag on my packs, my US Postal Service YELLOW jersey (thank you Lance Armstrong...) and happily making my way to Compostela as a pilgrim.

For the same respectful reasons that the US will suspend bombing during Ramadan, I know that any person who professes a belief in God, call him Krishna, Allah, Jesus, or Bob, will respect my pilgrimage. I know I'll be safe, happy and will arrive in Compostela in one piece (and in one peace).

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: CaliBasco ]

Puna y CaliBasco,
You guys could not have said it better!
CaliBasco, I plan to wear my God Bless America T Shirt all the time I'm in Spain in December. I think that it is important that our European friends note that Americans are not cowed by the threats of a bunch of cowardly terrorists!

CaliBasco - are you planning on walking or biking the Santiago de Compostela trek? I recall both methods were mentioned a while back (a long while back!) I know there are more than a few of us who have thought about doing it - and will be looking forward to hearing about your experiences - from the planning stages onward.

[ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: Puna ]

Just a quick note as I haven't had time to read all of the "posts." My husband and I just spent three weeks in Spain...returned on the 14th. Trip was delayed because of the terrorist attacks but we successfully rescheduled and left CA on September 23rd. We had an absolutely WONDERFUL time! I had forgotten how much I LOVE that country, how incredibly beautiful it is and how much I/we had missed it. The Spanish way of life suits us perfectly. I can't wait to go back!!

We saw very few American tourists, even in Segovia, Toledo and Madrid. And "up north" in La Rioja, Euskadi and Cantabria--few tourists period. We did meet an Australian, Canadian, Mexican, two Argentines and an American family--all in Madrid. There seemed to be quite a few Spaniards "touring" their country.

I have so much I want to add about lodging, restaurants, etc...will get to those topics eventually--as soon as I get caught up around here!

I totally agree with those of you who plan on making your trips to Spain. My wife and I are planning on it, but not until next year, having put off what was to be a fall trip this year.

If our traveling in small groups, like family, makes us vulnerable, we are just as vulnerable here in the States as well.

Now... on a brighter note... I'd like to travel with CaliBasco on his trek, but my health won't allow it. So, instead, I will cheer him on all the way to the end, knowing he'll find computers enroute, to let us know how his journey is going, and giving us comprehensive information about each town and village he visits, along with a complete "Michelin Rating" of the food in various restaurants, and prices...

Wolf (Who likes Calibasco's poignant posts!)