Hi Cali.

You have assume both that I have studied in an "instituto of curas" and that I read "El País" neither of them is true. It made me smile those statements, I felt you were telling me "state appart little boy, I'm going to tell you some story".

I tend to be critic on what I see, more in regard of ETA and its environment. My ideas regarding it are a mix of what I have studied, what I have seen in the Basque Country, what I have read and what I have been told by basques. So I consider myself quite informed. You are right that there are things I will never understand, but there is something I know: there is no single idea which is worth of cutting a life.

Yes, I understand why ETA política was created: to oppose the dictatorship of Franco. ETA-p dissolved years ago, when the reasons for its existence ceased to have weight. However, ETA político militar, a band of pure terrorists and radicals continued to make it's own "war" against the democracy.

See, the difference between the catalonians and the basques is that the catalonians where clever enough to pursue their ideas pacificly, did you know there was a terrorist group anaog to ETA in Catalonia (Terra Lliure)? They now have a great economy and they pursue their ideas according to the laws that rule the democracy that our parents fighted for.

Sorry but Castilla was born in the west of the Basque Country, are we so different? Absolutely no. A basque is as different to a madrileño than to a catalonian. That is the richness of Spain.

"Look at present-day Navarra: Aside from the comunidad foral flag, which other flag is more predominant, the Spanish or the ikurriña?"

Of course the ikurriña at present. When I was a child the navarros would never have showed an ikurriña, never. Now the radicals have forced the situation to a point in which it is difficult to show an spanish flag (otherwise you expose yourself to reprisals), but easy to show an ikurriña.

"The only reason Navarra is somewhat separate from the rest of Euskadi is that there are so many transplanted Spaniards so as to make it the least Basque of the seven provinces in the «zazpiak bat». The province isn't any less Basque. Is Bilbao no longer Basque because of the influx of andaluces after the war? Not quite."

This statement did surprise me... Where have you read that? The concept of the seven provinces is a one that has been invented earlier than 10 years ago. Tell a french basque that and he will laugh at your face. Transplanted spaniards? What do you think that Franco made colonies there? There are as many spaniards in the Basque Country than basques in Madrid...

The blood difference is the more stupid lie the separatists have thrown to show how different they are... No single scientist has never supported that lie. Yes, my blood type is AB negative, I want to be independent of all of my siblings!!!!

Now you assume that the government does obscure things behind the scene, but you apparently don't care of what terrorists are doing in the name of foolness in front of our eyes.

In my short life I can recall some things.

First: Ikurriña is a flag which was invented by Sabino Arana (a man whose mental health was far from good). Have you never thought why is it sooooooo close to the flag of the United Kingdom? The ideologist thought it would give the Basque Country the power of an empire...

Second: The euskera is a mix of dialects of the real basque language, based upon batua. They have eliminated the richness of the basqye language just for the cause.

Third: ETA doesn't represent the Basque Country, but they assume that role.

Fourth: Navarra has never been akin to the Basque Country. When I was a child to call basque a navarro was close to an insult (the same as a riojano).

In this democracy there is no single reason for ETA to exist. No one. They may pursue their objectives: independentism, via the basque parlament. But they will never stop until they destroy Spain and create a marxist-leninist country which comprises the Basque Country, Navarra and the french Department of the West Pyrinees.

Fernando

I'm not very well documented on history, but as far as I know, the Basque country decided to join Spain freely to be defended from Navarra kingdom. Here is where the fueros came from. Since the creation of Spain in XVIth, the Basque country has always been in Spain.
The nacionalism beguins in the XIX when nacionalisms are on fashion in Europe, and comes from Carlism (when the basques supported the brother of Fernando VII Carlos instead of his daughter Isabel II).
I think a basque is as different from a castellano as can be an andaluz or an aragones... how different is an alavés or a navarro from a Riojano? An a riojano from a soriano?... I think frontiers between regions inside Spain are not so well defined, for example inside Madrid, towns from the sierra look more like segovianos while towns from the south look more like manchegos.
Anyway I think there isn't an easy solution, as we have seen from the last basque elections, a little bit more than half of the population is nacionalist (pacific), an almost half is not nacionalist, so if you give independence to Basque country you are not respecting the rights of this high minority.
Anyway, going back to ETA, the most damaged are the own basques, and they fight again the basques who think different..

Fernando- At the risk of turning this into a tit-for-tat (too late...), I'll respond with posts similar to those I've already posted months ago, as you are new:

«Transplanted spaniards? What do you think that Franco made colonies there?» That is exactly what happened. Poor, unemployed andaluces, loyal to the Nationalist cause, were sent to work the Altos Hornos and other steel mills in Vizcaya. By infiltrating the Basque region, Franco hoped to augment his other anti-regionalist activities (such as only allowing one language [unless you were gallego like he was]).

«The blood difference is the more stupid lie the separatists have thrown to show how different they are... No single scientist has never supported that lie.» Unfortunately, you have missed my point, and you are wrong. The research that I quote, done by British and American anthropologists, not scientists, is conclusive in showing that Basques have the highest concentration of type O of any ethnic group in Europe, and the lowest incidence of B. This simply shows that they have a long, somewhat isolated history, during which they've done very well at conserving their identity. This doesn't mean that they should further isolate themselves by separating, it simply shows that, contrary to your earlier post, they are different biologically. Since you had attempted to refute me on that point earlier, in effect accusing me of lying twice, I had to clarify this.

«Sorry but Castilla was born in the west of the Basque Country, are we so different? Absolutely no. A basque is as different to a madrileño than to a catalonian. That is the richness of Spain.» What are you saying here? I can't follow you on this...

«The concept of the seven provinces is a one that has been invented earlier than 10 years ago. Tell a french basque that and he will laugh at your face.» I agree...it is one has been invented earlier than 10 years ago. It's actually a concept that has its roots in post-Roman rule in the 5th and 6th centuries. I'm glad you recognize that. It is true that the French are less prone to advocate a separate Basque state. They represent, of some 2.5 million euskaldunes, about 300,000, or about 8%. They are the poorest of the Basques, and have received more in government subsidies from Paris than the taxes they pay. They have had it relatively well, while their "Spanish" counterparts have lived under 40 years of dictatorial rule, and only in the last few decades have they truly been respected with "autonomy".

Batua is simply an ease-of-use Euskera, created to increase the opportunity to teach the language to young Basque children. Just like the English taught in American schools is different than that spoken "in the street", so too the Euskera spoken in the different areas of Euskadi, on both sides of the political border created by the Pyrenees.

«Navarra has never been akin to the Basque Country» Are you sure you didn't go to school with the PP curas? Nothing could be further from the truth than your statement here.

I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree, as I no longer plan to rehash my thoughts over and over again. I think we have a lot of common ground, but we differ on many points. I will close with one olive branch: I agree (and I don't think I've been clear on this) that the Basques would NOT survive as a completely independent nation. I'm most concerned with their ability to preserve their heritage, culture and language.

Best of luck to you as you continue to research this matter, and keep reading El País... :p

CaliBasco [Who would give his eye tooth to again live in Euskadi!]

CaliBasco, you state "I do, however, understand why they do what they do." I sure don't. Nor should anyone who values human life. I'm sorry. No amount of abuse or repression or past wrongs justifies the killing of innocent people. ETA does not value human life any more than the Nazis did. And I don't understand why they did what they did either. I'm sorry that ETA's propaganda has sucked you in. Nationalism and terrorism in the name of nationalism are racism, pure and simple.

Millions of people have migrated across the globe, both intranationally and internationally, and hostility towards the recent arrivals is always racism. I have never heard of any forced repatriation in Spain. People move where there are jobs. It is happening right now in the U.S. as southern states grow faster than northern states. It happened in Spain as well. If the government helped unemployed people find jobs in another region, this is admirable policy.

Noone is repressing the Basque people now but ETA.

I thought I was done here, but apparently I'm a racist nationalist who's been "sucked in by ETA's propaganda ". Since I (sadly) do not agree with that brash assumption, I will again (as done the last time this thread opened) clarify the myth from the meat.

What's happened here has happened every other time this topic has been uncorked: Someone (in this case me) has presented the uncommon viewpoint, not because I espouse it, but because it is there, and that someone (me) is automatically labeled and placed in the same bin as those terrorists who kill and maim.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in no place on this thread have I ever stated an advocacy of violence, any support of ETA, or links to any propaganda. I believe I've only stated that I understand why they do what they do. If you choose to define that reason as simple "hate", you may not be that far off. I choose to feel that, since I'm not a chronic hater, it runs just a tad bit deeper than that. If understanding BOTH sides of the coin makes me a "nationalistic racist terrorist" then I suggest you meet with Merriam Webster and discuss your definition with him.

The main difference, for example, between a midwestern American and a southern American is nothing more than whether or not one chooses to say "y'all". Sure those in Arkansas may prefer rocky mountain oysters and okra to lutefisk and lefse... Comparing the apple of the USA to the orange of Spain is a risky proposition. Where (supposedly) the US was founded on inclusion and tolerance (don't say that to the Cherokee), the modern notion of "Spain" (c. 1460+) was based on isolationism and Catholic xenophobia. Ask the Muslims and Jews who were expelled eight months prior to Columbus "discovering" America where the financing for such a voyage came from? I believe the term "convert or get out" is appropriate when dealing with "Siglo de Oro" Spanish history...

So to liken the move from the north to the sunbelt in the US to populating state-run steel mills with people from an entirely different ethnic group for the purpose of watering down the resident ethinicity (Hello, Caudillo...) is entirely different.

Please remember, this is a VIEWPOINT (based mostly on recorded historical fact...but a viewpoint nonetheless), and should be treated as such.

I believe I owe an explanation and apology to Fernando, as my recent posts have been laden in sarcasm. I know after living in various regions of Spain at length, that sarcasm is the least-understood method of American humor. I appreciate your willingness to post on such a controversial issue. While knowing you would never begin to see things as I do (not my intention, anyway), I do hope that you would simply accept that not everyone feels as you do, and that differing viewpoints make for interesting talk over tapas.

Caminante, with all due respect, I've neither been sucked into nor espouse what you seem to think I espouse. I simply enjoy a good debate taken from multiple angles.

If you need me I'll be reading from Don Sabino and making a bomb in my basement, all while clad in my ikurriña undershorts and speaking batua. :p

Caminante,

I didn't see anything in what CaliBasco said that indicated he was in favor of the tactics employed by ETA. I did see where he said he can understand why a group like ETA could come to exist. I aqree with him fully, and to re-iterate something he indicated, the Franco regime intentionally moved non-Basques into Basque Country to invalidate the votes that the Basques had in voicing their political view. This was done by denying Basques jobs, and bringing in outsiders to take key positions which would then lead to the hiring of non-Basques within the work place.

At no time did Cali indicate that the killings were justifiable. In fact he indicated he was against the violence, but also indicated that the policies of the Spanish government has never swayed from making the Basque region subservient to the whims of the Madrid government, even since the death of Franco.

What irks me most is when people automatically accuse anyone who supports the Basque issue of sovreignty as being a communist because they don't agree with the views of the PP. If that's the case, anyone who supports the existing government must be a Fascist, because that was really the enemy of the Basques in the first place.

Spain will never rule the hearts and minds of the Basques. As long as she continues to deny what the people believe is their rights, there will be bloodshed, and it won't stop as long as the government doesn't honor what they consider their rights.

I wonder what I would do if I was in that same position. Would I opt for trying to find a peaceful way of gaining independence, even though I knew that the governing body would never allow me independence, or would I lash out violently to demonstrate my beliefs. I'm not certain, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to test the average American's resolve if it happened here. I think the bloodshed in Spain would be just a drop in the bucket compared to the uprising you'd see in America.

Wolf (Non-violent by nature, but I don't turn the other cheek either. You just end up getting slapped twice.)

I'm sorry to post about this matter once again. I've been on vacation.

Yes Cali, not only you have been sarcastic. You have insulted me in a very rude way. First, I have studied in a school which was not ruled by the Catholic Church (your hated curas). It was a non-religious private school which educated me in the best principles I could hope, for example the respect to a life and to the differences.

Second, you may say what you want about PP, I don't care (nor I've never said that I vote that party).

Third, I don't read El País, which is a good newspaper indeed, but affiliated to the socialist party (I can't understand the link between PP, curas and El País).

Appart from that I don't mind to discuss whatever you or any other want, no matter how missguided and missinformed I think you are.

I would say, you border the justifying of the crimes of ETA, or that is what I have understand here.

No single person was transplanted to the Basque Country. That is ridicolous. "Poor, unemployed andaluces, loyal to the Nationalist cause, were sent to work the Altos Hornos and other steel mills in Vizcaya. By infiltrating the Basque region, Franco hoped to augment his other anti-regionalist activities"

¿? This is the most ridiculous statement I have seen regarding this matter. The opposite, the basques who have come to Madrid, have been transplanted here? Beware: I know of some who are exiliated from their home because are afraid of ETA and its environment, and beware that those andalusians you said were so fervorous followers of Franco sometimes filled the ETA ranks. Why? To seem more basque than the basques you have to be the more radical (stupid way of thinking, but I have seen it a couple of times).

The blood difference: Please post a link or a reference here of your source. Those studies were conviniently financed by the persons who used them to say how different they are from the rest of us. And if I'm not wrong they were conducted by local "scientists". I'm not saying they are not different, but as different as any other region.

«Sorry but Castilla was born in the west of the Basque Country, are we so different? Absolutely no. A basque is as different to a madrileño than to a catalonian. That is the richness of Spain.»
I mean that one of the best things of Spain is that we have various languages, various cultures and that we are so different from one region to another.

Oh yes, in your eyes there is always a reason for a minority of the basques to want independentism. It is Franco's opression, or french subsidies. You know what? Not only the basques suffered the opression of a dictatorship, it was all the country. And here in Madrid we don't want independentism (which is a fair objective) and much less we support any kind of terrorist activities. ETA has murdered people who were very active opposers of Franco's regime, they were jailed for decades you know, and ETA kill them because they are against them (to name one: Jose Luis López de la Calle).

Batua could be what you want it to be, but the reality is that in the name of uniformity they are killing a richness of the basque language. Something as if the spanish of Madrid was imposed all over Spain.

Never in the history the border between France and Spain has ceased to exist. It is more that a political border. Of course there are french basques and spanish basques I don't deny it. But they are just a little bit less different to one another than any spaniard to a french (they share a common language and they are neighbours after all).

You may recall whatever barbaric events in spanish history (for sure we have lots) but that doesn't change the reality: ETA is a terrorist and criminal organization which pursue no other objective than making money, and eliminating any basque who dare express any idea inconvenient to them.

And please, don't conduct the discussion to "independentism yes or no". I don't care if the basques decide (based upon an astrology aliniation if they want) to separete from the rest of Spain. As long as the rights of the minorities are respected I will not mind (but it will shaden me).

But I do care, I oppose and condemn any assasinations, bomb blast, kidnapping, extorsion, or any other crime conducted by ETA. They have the tools and the chance to pursue the same objectives in a democratic way.

You will not convince me that the basques wete repressed more or less than the rest of the spaniards (including catalonians, some of them pursue the independism in pacific ways), nor that the basques have any historical justification for doing it appart from wanting it (what for me is enough). Catalonia was independent twice in the history, but is an example of how to conduct things in a democratic way.

You may appeal to Franco or whoever the hell you want, but remember that he is only history for me. History from which we could learn to avoid the same errors than our parents and grandparents made. Nothing more, nothing less.

You may if you want see some myths and realities about the Basque Country here: http://members.nbci.com/MarMediterra/Nacionalismos/Mitos/truth.htm

Bla-bla-blazo....

Fernando-My sarcastic comments about El Pais, los curas and the PP have been grossly misinterpreted, and for that I can only say "my apologies". The three things are representative of life in Spain today: The government, the religion and the media...

The PP and the curas go hand-in-hand, no? My reference to them was not a guess as to which way you vote in the elections (you do vote, don't you, Fernando?), but rather a commentary on the fact that whoever has ruled Spain in the past few centuries has always found a willing ally in the Catholic Church.

Ergo: He who has the power, writes the story, and therefore, the Church, in some cases for its survival (?) aligns itself with the ruling party. I don't care who you vote for, but you can bet your last peseta that whoever controls the gobierno is making the curriculum and writing the books for your "private-non-religious" instituto. I'm sure they still have to adhere to some sort of basic curriculum for accreditation purposes.

It's the same way here...except that religion and state are separated, so we go to the lowest common denominator...no prayer, no pledge of allegiance to the flag, free condoms to kids, not a hint of "abstinence" as an effective birth control practice, etc. Be grateful that your country seems to have a conservative conscience. I certainly do NOT hate the curas...at least the good ones who also still have a conservative conscience.

My comment on El País is self-effacing as well. I READ EL PAIS...DAILY. It seems to be the most central of the dailies I've encountered, even though no daily is truly without bias.

Oddly enough, the information that I've quoted has been corroborated without solicitation by others on this board. The physiological quotations come from AMERICAN writers who find the Basque persona fascinating (as do I), and in no way were they funded by ETA in their studies...THAT seems a little ridiculous...

The only reason I brought that up (a point which I thought I'd made, but apparently was overlooked), was that the Basques on BOTH sides of the Pyrenees have had remarkable success in maintaining cultural uniqueness in the face of constant infiltration and conquest over the centuries.

It was you who suggested I brought this out as some sort of misguided Aryan tactic. I'm not sure where that came from, but I suppose if you're looking for a fight, you'll say just about anything to incite the other point of view. I, however, am not looking for a conflict. I'm just tired of the same old posts on every ETA thread "It's horrible...it's outrageous...I abhor the killing...bla bla bla."

WE ALL AGREE ON THAT. SO EVERYONE PLEASE STOP STATING THE OBVIOUS.

What we do not agree on is what I respond to. The fact that many of my views are summarily discounted as myth and propoganda reaffirms to me their veracity. These are the sorts of truths that are NOT taught in any instituto, public or private, but in the homes of Basques who have lived through them, and whose opinions they represent. To call these opinions "ridiculous" is to dishonor their trials and struggles and to ignore history. Shame on you.

«I'm sorry to post about this matter once again.» Me too.

CaliBasco [Who wishes both of the people who care about my posts a good day] :p

Hi.

"The PP and the curas go hand-in-hand, no?" ¿? I don't know where have you heard that but it is false. There is no single party with representation in the parlament that is religious. The PP, as any other parties, have things in common, and of course disagreements with the Catholic Church.

"you do vote, don't you, Fernando?" Yes, I exercise my right to vote.

The role of the Catholic Church in Spain over the history has been quite bad, in my opinion. But enough to say, they have nothing to do with this issue (terrorism). I would say, however, that they have had a bad role too, being ambiguous at best, protecting terrorists (some curas of the Basque Country) sometimes.

Of course the books may be manipulated. It is your choice to look over them and keep yourself as well informed as you can.

Now, you imply that I don't find the Basque persona fascinating. I have both family and friends who are basques. I like the Basque Country and I like the basques and their culture.

I'm sorry to repeat myself. The biological difference is ridiculous. Do you think that people who live 50 Km away can be that different? There has been migrating fluxes from and to the Basque Country, so, althought there are differences, there are no bigger than with other regions.

I don't seek any fight. I have better things to do than fughting, what I seek is discussion and talking about the matter.

You think it is obvious the condemning of ETA, but I have seen in some posts in this message board, and in lots of forgein newspapers ETA be referred as a 'Basque separatist group'. I'm tired of hearing it. ETA is nonetheless a terrorist and criminal band who is assuming the representation of all the basque society when they only have the 15% of population support there.

You say that because I summarize your views as myth and propaganda they are truth. Have you thought about other choice? You may be wrong, don't you think? Or perhaps you think you are in possesion of the absolute truth.

I may be wrong too, speacially with some details, but I try to keep as well informed as I can.

I told you to post your sources here, you know why? Because it is something I'm not sure of. I tend to believe what I have heard about the biological difference, but since I'm not 100% sure I asked you for the sources. Please post them here and share them with us.

Anyway, any biological difference (as having more percentage of a blood group) won't be a reason to separate from Spain, and certainly it is no reason to kill anyone.

I'm sorry, but I will continue saying what I think of ETA: they are barbarians, criminals and killers.

Fernando

"It's the same way here...except that religion and state are separated, so we go to the lowest common denominator...no prayer, no pledge of allegiance to the flag, free condoms to kids, not a hint of "abstinence" as an effective birth control practice, etc. Be grateful that your country seems to have a conservative conscience. I certainly do NOT hate the curas...at least the good ones who also still have a conservative conscience."

Well that's pushing it a bit off topic isn't it? But this is something I'll comment on!

I remember coming back to the states and going to high school, and everyone doing that pledge and I thought "What the hell is this fascist crap? I'm not doing this!" They flipped out... and called my parents! But if you did this in Europe this day and age people would find it revolting. I have a US passport and paid their taxes. I follow the law when I'm there. I will decide what I pledge myself to myself thank you.

And seperation of church and state? How about Kansas where they finally decided that teaching evolution might be a good idea? Or banning books in Florida because churches don't like them? Or school prayers? What if there are jews or hindus in the school? Might be a little uncomfortable for them...

And I believe you said somewhere else that Americans were all quite similar? I would strongly disagree with that statement as well.

As for Euskadi, any argument turns into a "You're wrong." "No, you're wrong." "No, you're extra wrong!" so I pass on that.

[ 08-02-2001: Message edited by: Asterault ]