Yesterday ETA killed a vasc policeman and a councilman from Pamplona (Navarra).

I decided to post this message for one reason: I know that ETA is not well known abroad. ETA is not a vasc separatist group (there are political democratic legal groups that pursue independentism without problem), ETA is a terrorist group, nothing more, nothing less. Thought their fachade is that they seek a Vasc independent country the reality is that they are assasins.

They have been related to islamist terrorist groups, with Breton and Corse terrorists and with IRA, though comparing IRA with ETA is a joke (the are not the same).

Abandon any romantic idea you have from ETA. ETA has killed children, councilmans, policemen, soldiers, writters, college teachers, news reporters, politicians and common people (if they where near the bomb blast).

They have let people in a wheel chair, with both legs amputated. They have let people as a vegetal (failed head shots). Any who speak publicly against them is in danger.

And that, considering that Vasc Country has more autogovernment than many federal states from the United States.

Comments? Questions?

Naturally, you now that anybody saying the opposite could be prosecuted according to spanish law under charges of "aplogía del terrorismo", and that the Net is monitorized by police/secret service organizations looking for key words such as "ETA", "terrorism", ...

First, the reality can be viewed from many points of view. In Holland they keep on calling ETA vasc separatist group, and that is no terrorism apology.

Also, spanish laws only aply to people who are phisically in Spain.

And I doubt our police is that good to scan what it is said in this forum. Anyway, I would like to now other points of view, specially of forgeins.

There you've opened a full series of cans of worms, ETA image campaigns abroad, their ideology,....I

Thinking on foreigners, I think that the famous Jon Juaristi's book is a "must read" for anyone who is looking for knowledgeable insight on the subject. (shame is not in english)

I've living in Italy for some time and I'd like to point out a dimension of the problem, that is not normally included. The social and economical factors that gave birth to ETA are similar (with all the historical and social transformations needed) to the environment that generated the mafia in Naples 200 years ago. From its begginings as a protective brotherhood to its current being as a cashflow generator through bombing, shooting, pressuring media,....ETA is more and more, resembling to a mafia only interested in its selfpreservation.

Now ETA, is basically machine of making tons of dirty money, how can anyone expect that it will disolve by itself once holy independence arrives?

>you now that anybody saying the opposite
could be prosecuted according to spanish law under charges of "aplogía del terrorismo"

Ignacio, don´t try to defend the undefendable, ETA is a criminal organization agaisnt everybody, even ETA members were killed once they realized that their actions were bad and stupid.

There is nosense in ETA targets, ETA has not ideology or politic targets, ETA is only a way of life for some mad persons.

Is Batasuna in jail?? ,that politic basque organization justify the murder, but they are not prosecuted...Under by my point of view they must be forbidden, but we are in democracy. It´s incredible, because they are like nazis defending all the ways to get the independence...

Replay, Nativo, and Fernando:

This is my second and last message inthis thread on this matter, so you will have to forgive me if I don't answer any more replies, but I simply do not dare to risk myself to express any more opinions in this matter. Probably I will be being investigated by now because of not saying ETA is the devil/a group of pigs/mafia, ..., et al.

The Basque Country problem is a political one, should be solved through negotiation, just like the Irish, although it has a slightly different origin. People who are basque nationalists may not agree to violence, but they can not blame their fellows for losing their patience, after waiting for twenty years of democracy to be given their rights (besides of the 40 Franco's years).

As you probably know, the basque country is a small area, with no rainforests and few mountain ranges to create a guerrilla, so some people think that terrorism is the only possible kind of war. For them, this is a war. In wars there are victims, some dead, some prisoners, some handicapped. It is a pity.

I can still remember PSOE party calling urban guerrilla to left winged 'terrorists? in Central America. For each person and situation, the line between urban guerrilla and terrorism moves one side or other.

Nativo: The origins of ETA have nothing to do with mafia, that is obvious for anybody who knows the history of it. It comes from PNV fighters against Franco, a political party, long time ago.

Replay: I didn't ever defend ETA in this forum, nor I will now. About the madness and stupidity of its actions, many times we think an action has no sense when we can't or don't want to see the sense of it.

Batasuna can not be in Jail since it is an organization. As for if it is forbidden, it has only months of age. But its antecessors have been fair or unfairly forbidden ( Euskal Herritarrok, Herri Batasuna). I think forbidding people to express themselves through a democratic party is no good.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

I don´t know what kind of reality is seeing Ignacio...

I only know my reality and I am not in a war with my basque friends, one friend of mine lost (being only a child, when she was going to school) her two legs in a bomb, and in the world history Basque Country was never an independent nation.

Three facts, decide yourself.

Perhaps if only españoles are going to reply here, this thread should be conducted in Spanish. It's a little hard to clearly follow all of the thoughts, but at least I can tell the emotions that charge them.

We've discussed and rediscussed this topic under the "Safety and Security" forum, Fernando. I suggest you check there for the thoughts of many of us who are not Spanish.

As for me, I've spent a year of my life living in the Basque country and Navarra, and have married a Basque. I neither defend nor oppose ETA's thoughts. I deplore their violent means, and am sickened at the images of those who are victimized randomly by any terrorist group. I do, however, understand why they do what they do.

As mentioned on the other thread, Franco created ETA. And since the republicans were not strong enough to overcome the fachas and their allies, the victory of "Spain" became the derrota of the Basques, the Catalanes, etc. If you're of any advanced age, you'll remember not being allowed to talk about your TRUE feelings for Spain's government under Franco. Spain allowed the dictadura of Franco to go on unchecked until his death in 1975. For almost 40 years, Spain was held back from progress in the world. And for almost 40 years, those who were not ethnically "castellano" were repressed (unless, of course you happened to be gallego, which incidentally was Franco's region of birth...). Ikastolas were shut down, and only castellano was permitted. Because Franco was too vain and stupid to recognize that history has proven the Basques to be incredibly loyal to those who respect them, he chose the "path of least resistence" and by so doing, created the conditions that would give birth to ETA.

So we are here today dealing with the same issues that have been on our minds since Charlemagne: 1) While Euskadi may have never been cookie-cutter sliced out and colored differently on the map, denoting it as a separate country, it has ALWAYS been different. The language, look, BIOLOGY (check a Basque's blood type sometime...) and customs are uniquely Basque. 2) Those who would seek the cooperation of the Basques throughout history have known full well that the way to a Basque's heart is by respecting his culture, laws and customs, NOT by repressing them. The monarchs of the past would come to Gernika and swear allegiance under the Gernikako Arbola to uphold the ancient Basque fueros. In return, the Spanish monarch would receive the oath of allegiance from the Basque leader. Franco was a fool, and now the families of countless individuals suffer.

Again, I do not condone or defend violence. I do, however, prefer to place the blame where it belongs.

Replay: In world history, Euskadi has ALWAYS been different and separate. On the map of political geography, it has shown up as part of some other kindgom, but make no mistake about it, the Basques are gloriously different than the rest of "Spain" and "France".

To close, I agree with others here that although you do not agree with EH's views, you do purport to live in a democracy. If that is the form of government you wish to have, then you must allow ALL people the opportunity to be represented. Squashing freedom of expression and speech just because you don't agree would place you in the same category as Franco and his facha henchmen.

Os invito a abrir este foro en la sección de hispanohablantes si deseáis compartir vuestros pensamientos sin límites lingüísticos. De todos modos, gracias por atreveros aquí...

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: CaliBasco ]

First, thanks for posting Cali. I know that many other forgeiners are not posting because they fear to side the wrong side, or to give their opinions. Also, there are spaniards who don't post because they fear ETA and what they could do to them.

I'm not going to reply here to Ignacio, of who I think is a liar from the begining to the end. Really nasty, it made me sick what I have seen here. I will post in the Safety and Security section

Now, CaliBasco, I will certainly reply to you and share my point of view with you (in english, because this section must be conducted in english according to MadridMan's rules ).

"I neither defend nor oppose ETA's thoughts."

I oppose ETA with all my soul. It is NOT a separatist group, it is just a terrorist band, and as such, it has to be judged by the spanish justice.

"I do, however, understand why they do what they do."

I don't. I'm 23 years-old, so Franco was death when I was born. I've never feel lack of freedom. I've been in the Basque Country, have friends (some of them nationalists) which are basque and, though I can understand any point of view in regard of the relationship of the Basque Country with the rest of Spain (a region, an autonomous region, a federal state or even an independent country, why not) I will never understand why they (15-20% of the basques) try to impose their beliefs to the rest of their fellows and the rest of the spaniards. They have the posibility and the mecanisms to defend the same way of thinking by pacifist means, as there are other political parties which do so.

"As mentioned on the other thread, Franco created ETA."

Would I be more acceptable if I say that Franco was a disastrous dictatorship? Yes, that's what I believe. But, Franco didn't create ETA, ETA was created by some intelectuals who thought that the dictatorship had to end.

Do you know that some of the ones who founded ETA are now menaced and killed for opposing ETA? ETA has killed the same intelectuals which founded it. Why? Because ETA is not what ETA was. It has no longer any reason for existing.

"...the victory of "Spain" became the derrota of the Basques, the Catalanes, etc."

Which basques and catalonians? The 20% who supports ETA or the 80% who doesnt?

"If you're of any advanced age, you'll remember not being allowed to talk about your TRUE feelings for Spain's government under Franco."

Ok, I'm 23 years-old and now I can say whatever I want of my government. Without restrictions.

"Ikastolas were shut down, and only castellano was permitted."

Ok, now there are dozens of ikastolas available in the Basque Country, and the situation has reverse to a point where it is impossible to learn only in castellano (spanish) in the Basque Country. One reason less for ETA to exist.

Yes, you are right that Franco created the situation for ETA to form. But that situation no longer exists, and ETA continues to kill people, normall people, not Franco's people.

"1) ... The language, look, BIOLOGY (check a Basque's blood type sometime...) and customs are uniquely Basque."

The Basque Country has never been an independent country, it has always depended of the kingdom of Navarra.

The language? Which one? The actual euskera is a mix based upon a dialect called "batua". If you know the Basque Country you will find that it has a lot of valleys, in each of them a different dialect was developed. The nationalists created a unified language by mixing up those dialects and imposed it to all the basques, thus destroying the richness of a language, just for having a unified language to present for their independentism project.

Biology? So you think the basques are a race appart? Maybe the arian race? It is just a nazi argument created by them to show how different they are of the rest of us.

Customs: Ok, the basques are a unique culture, noone discuss it. But they are as different from the people of Madrid than catalonians. Catalonia defends its independentism by pacifist ways instead.

"2) Those who would seek the cooperation of the Basques throughout history have known full well that the way to a Basque's heart is by respecting his culture, laws and customs, NOT by repressing them. The monarchs of the past would come to Gernika and swear allegiance under the Gernikako Arbola to uphold the ancient Basque fueros. In return, the Spanish monarch would receive the oath of allegiance from the Basque leader. Franco was a fool, and now the families of countless individuals suffer."

Yes Franco was a fool, but we can't court him now, so who is responsible of all the killings? Whoever kills! And beware: The Basque Country had its fueros (specific laws and rights) fully reestablished when the democracy came.

"To close, I agree with others here that although you do not agree with EH's views, you do purport to live in a democracy. If that is the form of government you wish to have, then you must allow ALL people the opportunity to be represented. Squashing freedom of expression and speech just because you don't agree would place you in the same category as Franco and his facha henchmen."

I fully agree with you but, apart of what you have heard from very interested mouths, do you know why is EH (the only party who supports ETA) prosecuted and courted by the justice? First, it was not the party which was courted, they were its bosses. Why? Because they dare to show an ETA video propaganda in the space they had reserved to express theyselves in the elections. That's how ETA and its followers laugh at us democrats!!!!!!!

Fernando, thanks for posting, but please don't believe all they teach you in el instituto and what you read in El País.

For you to say "I've been in the Basque Country, have friends (some of them nationalists) which are Basque..." to set up your opinion, is like me saying "I know the trials of the black man in America because I have friends that are black." Ludicrous. There are things that you and I will never understand.

The reason you don't understand the "15%-20% of Basques" who support ETA (a number that seems a little inflated...) is precisely because you were born after Franco died. That was my point. If you were Basque, and had lived at all during even the "dicta-blanda" years of Franco, you would at least understand why ETA exists, and why I say Franco created ETA. Ask any euskaldun viejo who spent 40 years afraid to speak Basque in public, unable to attend school in the language of his choice, unable to fly the ikurriña, and they'll agree.

"The victory of "Spain" became the derrota of the Basques and Catalanes..." refers to the attempted whitewash of both cultures by the dictatorial régime of Franco. So the percentage would encompass all 100% of those who call themselves Basque or Catalán, not 20% as you may feel. I'm sure if you look closely that you'll find plenty of "militant" catalanes. ETA just gets all the press.

The Basque Country has ALWAYS been separate from its neighbors. On a political map it may have been labeled as something else, but make no mistake, it has never "integrated" into its neighbors. Unfortunately, in "el instituto" they've told you that the Basques have apparently "always depended on the Kingdom of Navarra". Which sacerdote came up with that? Look at present-day Navarra: Aside from the comunidad foral flag, which other flag is more predominant, the Spanish or the ikurriña? With whom do the navarros feel a blood kinship? The madrileños? Not exactly. The only reason Navarra is somewhat separate from the rest of Euskadi is that there are so many transplanted Spaniards so as to make it the least Basque of the seven provinces in the «zazpiak bat». The province isn't any less Basque. Is Bilbao no longer Basque because of the influx of andaluces after the war? Not quite.

As stated, the swearing of the fueros was a way to gain the cooperation of the Basques, since the Spanish monarchs valued their military zeal and loyalty, and knew this was the way to ally themselves with it. Plus, the Basques made a nice buffer against the French.

The fact that you question my comment on the biological makeup of the Basques enlightens me as to your ignorance of their origins. I've said nothing of aryan or nazi ideology. Any fool can see that even on the outside, Basques are DIFFERENT than castellanos. My comment was based on personal research into UNSEEN factors such as blood type (for example: highest incidence of type O blood in Europe, and lowest incidence of type B).

Your lack of understanding of what ETA stands for is evident, as you've incorrectly assumed that they've stated the Basques are a super race in the line of thinking of the German Nazis. ETA has never avowed that. Which section of El País did that come from? Cultura?

«Yes Franco was a fool! but we can't court him now, so who is responsible of all the killings? Whoever kills!» Tell that to Pres. Aznar...que se responsabilice él. When everyone comes clean as to what they're doing "behind the scenes", agrees to peacefully dialogue, and really strive to be honest and open, then we can get down to doing away with ETA.

I do agree with you on this: ETA has changed from what it was to what it is. I neither oppose or support it, but I do think the methodologies employed to gain its ends are improper and horrific.

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: CaliBasco ]