Marco, I think Hispanics are discriminated in Spain too, no?

I do understand policy of peacful resolve against the Basques. ie. marches and moment of silence after each killing. However, I think Spain could learn a valuable lesson from the United States, an older modern day democracy (don't worry, we've learned a lot from Spain too so take a deep breathe and you just need a little humility minus a little of the Spanish pride). The real world means conflict; in or out of a democratic state. In non-emotional real world terms I think it is in Spain's national interest to stop the Basque independance movement now. The Basque country is a very valuable trade lane and should remain in Spanish hands.
So what's the solution? Simple, but yet difficult at the same time; tough love, carrot and the stick, and keeping the Spanish unified. Firstly, there must be a Spanish media campaign to stop ALL independance movements. Next, there must be a lot of money to pay off the Basque ruling elites. Finally, after that pay off occurs, the money should be threatened to be cut off for those provinces who refuse to allow reforms. Lastly, and most regretably, military muscle must be used in well thought out strategic strikes and infiltrations. From personal experience, when I was in the Basque country two years ago, I was on a bus and heard Basque school children singing nationalist songs. This should not be tolerated. Also, last summer, they were talking about "different" history books in the Basque country. This also should not be tolerated. I know this is a difficult issue in Spanish politics and I know there are no great democratic solutions. But waiting in marches will do nothing but allow a whole Basque generation to think of themselves as non-Spanish and anti-Spain. Take heed.

Here's a little poem that was written many years ago. You might want to check out who this man was.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Let's hope that this never happens. If we don't find ways to communicate with each other, and talk about our differences... we're doomed to allow history to repeat itself.

Wolf

All I can say Wolf is...........(reflective pause) well said.

Toddy,
I may sound pig-headed and too proud to you, but I refuse to consider American democracy as a model for my country. As a democracy, yours may be older, but it is one where less than half the people ever think it's worth bothering to vote; they can't see the point because it's so manipulated by the media and the big corporations. Also, it has wreaked so much havoc (imposing dictatorships, etc) in so many countries all over the world that one has to wonder what kind of a democracy that is. I could go on and on, and before you say anything, yes, I could also find a lot of flaws in the Spanish democracy, but that's not my point.
I just wanted to remind you that, contrary to what most Americans seem to believe, people in Europe do not regard the US as the be-all and end-all of democracy, but quite the opposite.
Sorry, it's my opinion.
Cheers

Marco, your 'facts' about dispropotional amount of blacks in prison and how they end up getting harsher sentencing is at best , as one giant american cultural icon Perry Mason would say: "Innuendo and hear-say!",
without mentioning that same racial segment of the society as a whole commits the largest , or the same dispropotional number of crimes. It, in itself makes it absolutely propotional.
Other than that , I have not much to say about your opinion re: Basque/ETA conflict.
I am not as knowledgeable about the issue as most on this board seem to be .
In general I think that, when one side (ETA) thinks that it is OK to kill people , women , children , innocent civilians in the name of justice , it is impossible to negotiate 'in good will'.
I hope solution is close , but it does not look good.

BTW, Toddy, I forgot to add that, yes, Hispanics (and other ethnic minorities) are regrettably discriminated in Spain !

Zzeus, why do you think black people commit more crimes, relatively, than white people in the States? I would say it's because they're discriminated and not given equal opportunities in life, don't you think?

Marco , I grew up in Scandinavia and spent my 'formative years' there, including school etc. I personally spoke the same words, the same critisism, and had the same one sided view of USA while there,as you demonstrate here now 30 years later.
It wasn't until I came here that I realized how biased those views were.
I do not want take the space in this thread to talk about an unrelated subject other than this reply to your last question.
African-american population makes wrong choices , they do not want to go to school , they do not want to work , males do not respect fatherhood or take any responsibility of their actions , they idolize things like 'gangsta rap' MTV lifestyle etc etc . At some point they are at loss , resort to drugs , crime etc BUT IT ALL started with wrong choices when young.
Whites do the same thing, but propotionally much less.
That same , above mentioned , life-style also disrespects true heroes of black community , such as Colin Powell , Clarence Thomas and hundreds, thousands , of others who with hard work and commitment to better their lives went through all kinds of hurdles, whether they were economical ,political or moral.
And now I once more repeat what I said earlier: unless you live here , you can not fully understand this.

wrong, wrong, wrong buddy. whites in the u.s. are involved in just as much unlawful behavior as any other group. they just don't get prosecuted as much. do your research. it is the nature of scapegoating. i am sure that if there are definable physical charactersistics of basques that they would be pulled over and prosecuted more often than the average spaniard.

by the way, do catalan's express opinions opinions about the ETA in Spain? I can't read Catalan, so I am not sure. But, I am curious as to how other "marginalized" groups view this movement...

Marco,
how about this one: Why are there more Gitanos(per population)than other Spaniards in Spanish prisons? Is it because they are discriminated against?

Americans do NOT believe that American democracy is the be all or the end all.(But, you have to admit that in the 21st century Kings and Queens should not be the heads of states) NO democractic system is the "best." Democracies can learn from each other. But, thank goodness your anti-American rhetoric is not supported by your landslide winner leader Aznar. I thank him for sticking up for Bush against the French and the Germans wishes. We look forward to working with Spain in helping to stop ETA via ECHALAN(not sure how it is spelled)listening device and other American led anti-terrorist training in Spain (which your country wants). And in extending the port in Cadiz so we can fit our bigger naval ships. We look forward to working more with Spanish architects to design our growing populated new cities. (a whole lot of plazas and cafes and tapas bars here now)Did you know that Kansas City Mo. sister city is Sevilla?And they have more fountains there than any other city in the world minus Rome? You see, the bottom line is that Spain and the United States ARE working closer together and learning from each other than ever before. Did you know also that now there are more cultural exchanges between Spain and the United States than with any other two countries in the world? Let's put away the rhetoric, and continue to work very close together to stop ETA today! one imperfect democracy working with another Salud!