And all of a sudden, this post blew up. Where have I been?!!

I can usually ascertain the depth of feeling or the level of guilt of an individual by the length of the post [please see my embarassingly long ETA threads...]. Sheba, you feel deeply, as I've noticed on other threads. Thanks for giving us that honest, first-person perspective of what it's like to "stand out". I've been there, too. Hopefully we can discuss some of that over dinner in a few weeks???

Ignacio, I'm afraid you're feeling a little too guilty and defensive about your country. Relax. I'm probably one of the most patriotic US citizens around, but I don't feel the need to defend her every move, especially when I can blame it on someone else. Remember, we all LOVE Spain...that's why we're on this board. We're with you, hermano.

Power corrupts...and absoulute power corrupts absolutely; whether on a national or local level. Sincerely, George Orwell. That's why you have exploitation, state-sponsored genocide and other violent acts perpetrated against one ethnicity by another.

CaliBasco [who never saw "Six Days, Seven Nights" because it wasn't even in the theater that long]

ignacio--i was not attempting to insult you personally and i apologize if i did.

i don't think i'm being bitter. i don't think everything i saw is made up or misconstrued or looked at through a very small lens.

the entire time i was there, i did speak to spanish people about these things, namely my professors and the building manager where i lived and some people who had lived in spain previously, so i have had a chance to bounce these things off other people who did and did not agree with a lot of things.

i honestly don't think spaniards are anglo-saxon white from what i've studied of their history. i honestly don't believe most americans are anymore either, but that's another story.

i have read quite a bit about spanish colonialism, so my view is probably tainted when it comes to this. i will admit that. i have read the accounts of christopher columbus, bartolome de las casas, hernan cortes, bernal diaz del castillo and alvar nunez cabeza de vaca with enthusiasm as we weren't ever really taught these things as americans.

i enjoyed them, but more important, i learned a lot from them about the spanish people and how they perceived others from the beginning.

on a side note:

i also love the imagery behind dolls. i think they play a very important part in our society in that they teach our young children how to view themselves and others. a child's first real play acting is with dolls usually, so it is important what those dolls represent, as many archeologists and psychologists believe and so do i. when i was young, not that this is very important, there were really no black dolls to play with. my mother refused to buy a white doll with blond hair for obvious reasons. i never forgot the reasons why and became really fascinated with dolls, statues, and other cultural representations of the human body. these things are cultural representations, whether we like it or not.

and by the way, i am black, but there is no doubt that there is white in me. how can there not be when i live in such close proximity (and steeped in) to this culture? both physically and culturally, i have white in me and native american, so it is not so far-fetched your suggestion about most americans being of mixed race.

my point was that, even if you kick the moors and the jews out, you cannot get rid of the intermix of blood that already took place before they were kicked out and you cannot unculturize yourself from them either. this is where the harsh "j" and "h" comes from and where much of Spanish poetry was inspired by and why there are still so many Spanish people who are darker and ruddier in complexion. this is not to say that you can't have blue eyes and blonde hair (some jewish people do too, by the way), but just to say that if the moors once ruled most of spain for hundreds of years, then it is somewhat naive to believe that they didn't intermarry with the spanish. and if i'm to understand correctly from what i've read, the majority of moors were very dark, often black people.

re: the police. i don't think i implied that they were torturers on that level. how absurd that would be of me. i said: like the police in most cultures....and i just mentioned what i saw. seeing is not always believing, this is true. but i cannot deny the many nights sitting there and watching them do things that made my stomach churn. sorry, i lived right across from their station where my window was parallel to theirs. i heard and saw too many things to say that people were just treated with indifference. am i lying? who can tell what someone really believes, sees, or thinks over the net?

i hope that i haven't insulted you further by saying these things and i hope that i have said these things with a more palatable approach as i do not mean to offend, i just want to understand and to think and to offer my opinion. i tend to put it all out there and face the consequences and i tend to speak what i see as i'm a highly visual person and since my diary was stolen in spain, i've been using this board as a place to say everything i experienced, including the good (please see my note on chueca under the places), including the bad.

and yes, i am a feminist. i make no apologies for that. never have, never will.
i don't think i'm a bitter feminist, as you implied earlier in your post. i think i just had a really bitter experience in spain which included being called trash (ask some of the other dinner group members about this), being called Whoopi Goldberg, being called Picachoo (sp?), and generally all-around being treated like crap while in madrid and without provocation and from the minute i landed. i certainly didn't save for two years and spend five years worth of savings to arrive feeling bitter or leave feeling bitter for that matter. i wanted to enjoy spain and all that it had to offer. i came with a very open mind.

and please, be my guest about commenting on america. i am always open to hearing any criticism (good and bad) of this country, in fact i have plenty to add about the merits and demerits of this country as well if you wish to e-mail me and i'm particularly interested in hearing about what you have thought of america and americans in your journey(s) here.

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: sheba ]

Calibasco:

I am not nationalist (at least from Spain), it is only that I felt something unfair was being said, just like when I told (I think to Fernando) when he was criticizing some supposed N.Am. behaviours in another thread, basing them in his 30 days' experience, that I found every kind of people in the States, in three trips and 45 days (besides sharing flat with some in Madrid for many months), and I was only beggining to have a sight of what your culture is.

I thought that critics were a bit unfair, and I said so.

Also I got rather pissed off, not because we (so, I too) were said not to be white, but because I believe the intention was to hurt, saying we think we are better but we are not. I didn't think this was fair either.

I also like somebody saying Spain is not so wonderful, because I live here, and know it is not perfect, but I would prefer that the REAL defects were show, not the imaginary ones.

For example, I have not defended Spain in the thread about stores because I think it may really have happened such things. I have had very few of these experiences, and I am accustomed to our straight-forward ways, so I don't distinguish between "you are too big for this clothes" or "This clothes have a too small design. I recommend you others".

But I respect different ideas, as far as I don't think they are against the truth, and as far as I don't guess that this is intentional.

About colonialism another thread would be necessary to speak of the real History with its miseries and/or exploitations, and the History we or you learn at school and both side's lies.




[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Picachu is a Pokemon, a cartoon. My sister was called like that in Ireland by her friends because she is very small

Sheba,

You did not insult me since, as I told you I do not consider that belonging to those races was sth. to be ashamed of. Anyway I am very glad that you didn't mean any harm.

Well, let me tell you about spanish ascendancy. No, we are not anglo saxon, but what you have omitted, I suppose because you didn't know is the european part of the mixture and its settlement areas. Same as if you go to Colombia or Brazil you can find mixed races in some areas, and white in some others (no or very few mixtures, because of the very small percentage of other races).

The older inhabitants of Spain recorded, are the Iberians, from these I can not tell you much, and the Tartesos.

Many years B.C. the Celts came, all throughout the country , but much more densely in the Northern areas, specially in Galicia and Asturias (these regions still hold strong ties with other Celtic areas like Bretagne (France), Scotland and Ireland. There are cultural Festivals each year, they produce celtic music, cider, ...

There were isolated Greek settlements in the Mediterranean coast, and Phoenician (formerly greek), close to Barcelona and Valencia.

There were three germanic invasions prior (I believe) to the roman conquer: vandalos, suevos, and alanos.

There was the roman conquer, which, by the way did not reach all the areas in the country (like part of the Basque Country) because of the fierce fight of the natives and the lack of interest for Rome.

Right after came the gothic (a germanic group) - in this case "visigodos", that took the whole country.

There are also the French people who settled in the North accross the Santiago way (In Pamplona, there was a Suburb called the French Suburb- Nearly half of the city in the old times), but not only French, people came from all of Europe to "erase" their sins, and many settled.

Also, there was the "Villa Franca" system, that was created for the French/Franks (and other europeans who believed in the same Church) in lands taken from the moorish under promise to defend it in exchange of free lands and tax exemptions.

These have been the invasions/inmigrations that settled in the country that you forgot to mention, all these european races. There have been more, but they didn't settle down, so, no genetical inheritance is left.

The moorish never controlled the whole country. The northern zones, with the help of Charles the Great (French), and the remains of the Gothic army (Asturias) always resisted. Some of them (Aragón, Basque Country) paid tribute and contibuted to fight the French, but were not colonized.

By the way, moorish were Northern African people, so they look like people from Marocco, not like people from Nigeria.

The substract of the moorish reigns in Southern and Central Spain was pre-moorish population, called "mozarabes" (= ¿new arabians?), so, even in these areas, population was still massively white. They surrendered and cotinued living under the muslim rules, that allowed much more liberty then. They admitted Jews and Catholics, although they were pressed to change religion and many did.

Colonialism died centuries ago, by 1898, when we lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines, people was really fed up of paying administration and war expenses,and sending their sons to death for sth. they had no part or land in. No nostalgy of Imperial destiny in anybody but a few fascistas.

If you have read the accounts you speak of, then you can see that there is always another point of view in this and in any History, I have also read some of those.

As for dolls, when I was a kid I used to play with plastic soldiers, but I have never seen me like a soldier at all.

About the people in the USA's origins, surely you don't mean that ALL of them have different races' blood. Many would feel very surprised.

I can not tell you were our "j" comes from, but I tink we ave "H"s in bot languages.

When I lived at home (North), I travelled to Cuba and the USA. In both places I was once told there were darker spanish (trigueños, in L.Am.), but I said I didn't think so. When I came to Madrid I was surprised that a number of people looked a bit like Marocco's people. Although they were not many, I was very surprised, for it is very strange in the North.

As for the Police, I believe that you may have felt disgusted by sth. you saw, but I see you like the alternative culture, what makes me think the level for your disgust may be far below most people's (non alternative) ones.

You don't need, of course, to apologize to be a feminist, I am too, but I don'tlike when people makes a flag for a crusade on this or race and fights his/her own crusade. The same stuff as when somebody is not promoted it always comes out the "That's because I am a woman". In many cases this is true, but there will be others where it is not. But it is always said, by the affected and by the "feminist warriors", always ready and searching for males' excesses - wether they exist or not. Or any other "politically correct warrior".

By the way, if you have really been treated like trash, I am very sorry, and they are fools not to let you display your beautiful smile (I saw the photos).

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

PHEW !! Thats a history lesson. Thanks !

sheba, your mention of dolls struck a chord in me, because i am trying to be very conscious of the images my 4-year-old daughter relates to and plays with (yes, we have made it to age 4 with no barbies in the house--not because i have prohibited them, but because there are other good options). i noticed that most of the dolls in spain were, as you mentioned, lily white with blonde hair--unless they were in flamenco outfits.

my daughter is currently in LOVE with her two "groovy girl" dolls--one black and one white--and parents here in the US would probably love these little toys! they are all brightly dressed, trendy, and as varied in looks as the faces and hair in the real world around us. on top of that, they DON'T have waspish little waists like barbie and their facial features leave room for imagination, not dreams of eventual plastic surgery.

they are made by a company based here in Minneapolis, i think.

and they have funky furniture and outfits and pets--all soft and cute stuff.

we have a long way to go in our country, as in spain--but starting with the kids is a good place to begin.
tara

ignacio--you are absolutely right.

Victoria, I mentioned on another thread that I really liked your statement about imagining some blond girl hearing "rubia, rubia" all the time. I think most of us have had inappropriate things said to us, regardless of race or other physical features...and I don't know if it is just because we are women or because the foreign woman seems safer to hit on. Once again, I have a story (Sheba, you may find this interesting too!) ***WARNING-THIS MAY BE OFFENSIVE****
About 6 years ago the daughter of one of my colleagues went on a tour of Europe that included Spain and Italy. Her mom is about 6 feet tall and thin as a rail. The daughter is just as tall, but most definintely NOT a beanpole...and is very blonde. All through Spain she was pestered by the "guapa, guapa" stuff with men popping up right in her face to say something. Some followed her with the Spanish equivalent of "Hey baby, do those legs go all the way up?" (Wouldn't you like to say "No, actually only the first 3 feet are legs...then I have some PVC pipes connecting them to my torso.") She wore a skirt to visit a cathedral and had an old woman hit her with a stick, yelling awful things at her. The skirt wasn't really all that short, but she had like 4 feet of leg, so it looked like she was wearing something much shorter than it was! Anyway, she started crying and some of the other girls in the group finally wrapped sweaters and stuff around her so that the old lady would let her into the church. The girl got so upset about her treatment that she didn't even want to get off the bus to see what she had gone to see! The group leader reminded her that she would be leaving Spain and going to Italy and things would surely be different.

Well, it sure was different! As she was taking pictures of something, some old creep came up behind her and grabbed her breasts. She screamed and the others in the group surrounded her. The old jerk backed off, but continued to follow her. Evidently it got hard for him to contain his admiration for her and he decided to take matters into his own hands, so to speak. One of the women (no doubt British ;)) exclaimed something that sounded a lot like the food Anchovy Front gave us the recipe for (TGI Friday thread), the group got on the bus and tried to calm the girl down. The man continued to do his thing while making kissy motions at her. The police came, but didn't arrest the guy. The girl decided not to go to Europe again!

La maestra (who doesn't know what she'll do for entertainment when she stops teaching)

Wow, what a load of contributions ~ insights and things to mull over.
I stayed some months in Guatemala last year and had people yelling, "Chinita! Chinita!" at me everywhere I went, so I can relate to that story. Thank you all for your replies. Sounds as though the racial issues are similar to that in much of our world, and clearly it depends on each person's own individual experiences. What I have read here runs along the same lines of much of what I know of latin american culture. The bold cat calls and staring, but mostly just harmless curiousity (or horniness!!!). Anyway, thank you all for the insights!
I will be headed to Madrid in November, I'll let you know if I have any related stories to tell!