Hi Tejano:

Well, I suppose soon MM will tell us we're off topic, but ... we have been for some posts, I don't think one more is too bad.

I feel honoured that you make this question to me. I have also studied History, Economy, Politics, ..., specially on Spain, but also (some of) the world ones.

As many old races, it is difficult to say where they come from. Some historian have said they come from Romania, which is confirmed by the fact that in Romania there are two kinds of population: a white race, very like northern spanish - White/very white skin, brown/clear brown eyes, black/brown hair, and the gypsies, who have brown skin, big noses, black curly hair.

It is said through their legends and oral history, that they came from Egypt in the old times, but what seems obvious is that the resemble the N African people in aspect, from Egypt to Marocco.

First, when spaniards speak badly on gypsies, we are not referring to a race, but to the remains of the people belonging to this race who go on with their nomad life. In Madrid I know some areas where there are 'modern society adapted' gypsies, and, although many people prefer living away from there, because costumes are different - very sexist, lots of noise, too prone to lose temper, ..., I didn't hear many complaints. To be honest, however, just in case some liked my car's wheels, I wouldn't live there, no matter that the possibility is small, unlike with their nomad cousins.

But the ones you really have to take care with are the nomad ones, and the ones who deal with drugs.

About the later, it is obvious why they are dangerous. The first ones ... Well, the gypsies, as you may have seen in films, used to make money through singing, reading hands, ..., and stealing.

If you were an entertainer in the old times, you could live very well with that and with the tell-future tricks with superstitious villagers, but what would you do when there were famines? They wouldn't be so eager to spend money in fun. They learnt to steal, I suppose for survival reasons.

Later, they developed a culture where they despice us. They word they use for non-gypsies 'payo' is something among stranger, stupid and pariah. They are still a bit savage, if you don't fight them when they assault you, they believe it is because you are afraid, not because you don't want to risk your life for ten $.

They think they are better, that's why they don't want to integrate. In L.Am., a person who has no properties, who is darker, who has no education would be willing that his daughter married a rich white cultured man (I don't say I agree, for me, both are of equal dignity), but a gypsy would probably kill his daughter because of dishonour (it has happened), just the other way round, and wrong too, I think.

It is the modern story of nomads versus settled peoples you saw with Atila, taken to our days.

As they don't want to integrate (the ones who don't), they would be marginals, close to homeless, but for the gold mines they found out with prostitution (in the old times) and drugs now.

I agree that also some of the rest of the spaniards deal with drugs, but if 5.000 spaniards and 5.000 gypsies did, what would you think? Spaniards (except gypsies) are 39 Million, gypsies are supposed to be 500.000. The percentage shows which group really works drugs out. Consider also, that the ones who are involved in the mayor crimes are the mafias in big cities, and that many of them have settled in the south (some big villages have half of their populeion with gypsy origin), so, in the cities, the percentage of gypsies dedicated to crime is high, and those who live on this earnings (families) even bigger.

It helps that they have an old fashioned tribal organization (mafia style) where the old bosses of the clan control all.

As a race, they are not crhistian or other religion. They have their own rites (marriage), and I believe the ones that integrated became catholic, although these late years you find many 'evangelicos'- don't know how to translate, it is aprotestant religion, numerous in the USA- The ones I have met who profess this religion have proved to be very honest, even more than the average spaniard.

I suppose the rest of the governments don't like them because of they behaviour. Was the USA happy with the cuban 'Marielitos'? What can governments do? Jails are full, it costs a lot of money to have prisoners there, and we will not exterminate them in 'pogroms'.

Hope this helped.

Ignacio

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio!
What prejudice! What are you talking about. There are good people and bad people. Remember, Franco's people(and his still living generals, living well in Spain) WERE NOT GITANOS, BUT SPANIARDS!!!!
And you talk about we Americans?
Is this a post-Franco education that your spouting?
A thought for Americans going to Spain, it seems as long if they are singing or dancing gitanos they are ok for some Spaniards, but don't let them get to close.

THERE ARE MANY MANY GREAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SPANISH AND PEOPLE CALL THEM GITANOS AND THEY DON'T DEAL DRUGS, OR BEG, OR DO ANYTHING WRONG!!!!
Ignacio this thinking is WARPED!
Wow, and to think we're in the 21st Century!

Toddy,

Go, take a walk with the non-integrated. But tell me first so that I can tell your family where to bury you!

As you see, my post above was very long. I tried to make it as short as possible, that's why I shortened 'gypsies versus spaniards' when all of us are spaniards. I think it is clear for that who wants to see (and not to accuse of racism because of lack of arguments in other areas).

An example of what I wrote (quote):

'I agree that also some of the rest of the spaniards deal with drugs, but if 5.000 spaniards and 5.000 gypsies did, what would you think? Spaniards (except gypsies) '

Here you can see I am speaking of gypsies as spaniards, come off populism!

AS I SAID BEFORE, there is good people and bad people, but the ethic rules of cultural groups are not always the one you or I think are right. The non integrated ones tend to consider crime something not very morally rejectable. It's much like taking your sister's shampoo or taking your dad's car for a ride, it DOESN'T have the same reject charge that stealing some other's car has for US.

AND I SAID THIS IS NOT A RACIAL MATTER. THAT THERE ARE MANY GYPSIES ,(either in Andalucía working in the fields) or in the rest of Spain, working in entertainment or iron slag, THAT YOU CAN APPROACH SAFELY, but park your car in the non integrated neighbourhoods, go for a meal, and look for your car afterwards, or at least your radio!

I also said that when the rest of spaniards complain about gypsies we are only speaking of the gypsies that are more notorious around us in the cities, the criminal ones, however, when you speak in depth, many spaniards will acknowledge that the ones who work for their living deserve respect.

Well, I prefer to be in this 21st century than in your science-fiction apocaliptic 37th.

Unlike you, I will reserve my opinion on your education. :p

Ignacio

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Today's newspaper Madridymas (translated by me, and checkeable by anyone in Spain):

'A gypsy woman shot several persons yesterday at the huts village Las Barranquillas. Injured her cousin Encarnación F.R. (pregnant 8 months), and her brother in law Justo M.L., and a drug addict who passsed by.

The police affirm that they know well the family who have bonds with drug traffic. However, they discard that the incident has to do with this matter."

We have had several of these lately, many times between different clans. Doesn't it sound familiar to you? Chicago? New York? Mafia?

You can see all the topics I spoke about happen in this case. Drugs, huts villages (non integrated), bursting temper, ...

I heard some people is discriminated in the States, but these people (at least before getting in a street gang or a drugs selling chain) want to integrate, have an average work, and become a productive citizen. The gypsies everybody complains of, are the ones that wouldn't take it even if offered. They don't even want to send their children to school! And they don't.

Ignacio

Hello Guys,
Question, is Gypsie & Gitano the same?

Ignacio, thanks for the information. Gypsies are rarely mentioned in History books. But you are right, I didn't think that Gypsies were native of Spain. After talking to some professors and people who have lived in Spain, Gypsies desend from N. Africa (Arab-Middle Eastern features).

Toddy: It seems like you have a good perception of most people, which is good. And I agree that in every ethnic group in this planet there are good and bad people. However, I also believe that in some ethnic groups or cultures there are more bad people than good people. In other groups the majority of its people are good citizens, perhaps 80% of its people are good and the other 10% are lazy and the remaining 10% are criminals.
Now as for the Gypsies, they have been known throughout the world of being bad people. Ignacio made a good point, you can offer them a job (earning money legally) and they will turn it down. They would rather steal or live off their relatives who also cheat and steal.
I wouldn't take my chances and be driving around in Andalucia with a non-integrated klan of Gypsies.
My apologies go out to any Good Spanish citzens of Gypsie decent who are good working, honest Christians.

What is the Spanish Government doing about these Gypsies who are dealing drugs and harrasing and stealing from tourists??

Tejano -

The Spanish government will probably do what the US government does about those "who are dealing drugs and harrasing and stealing from tourists" - only what the law permits AFTER they catch them (which is the REAL difficulty)

Being from Texas, Tejano, you probably have heard something about all the tourist murders in south Florida, specifically Miami. These criminals were actually following unsuspecting tourists from the airport rental car counters!!

I am in no way condoning these criminal acts, but it's a rather big expectation to think a "solution" can be provided by the government, either here or in Spain.

Regardless of ethnicity or country of origin, todays criminals seem to display the prevalence of "Me, me, ME!" - it's all about the individual, and not about society as a whole. I hate to climb up onto a soapbox, but I feel that a good place to start is in the home. What happened to parents teaching children the value of human life and the value of respecting others? How's about throwing in a few of the Big 10 ("Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet...etc.)(I am by no means an overly religious person, BTW - don't even make it to church half the time!) These things CAN'T be taught in schools, mainly because of the separation of church and state. (Anything remotely resembling anything religious automatically get's banned from the educational system.) Parent's DON'T WANT their children disciplined in schools - but they don't want to do it themselves either.

So, I guess that until everyone can respect and appreciate each other, violent crimes are going to exist. And, unfortunately, the tourist is more often than not the easy prey.

Pookita (who suddenly got a shot of that same passion that spurs Ignacio on in his posts)

Toddy, all,

I don't believe Ignacio was offering a racist point of view. Not based on his previous posts.

I think there's a difference between racism, and guarded perceptions of people. In the case of the Gypsies, it's guarded perceptions that Ignacio is expressing, based on the historical fact that those gypsies that you see in public places, who don't seem to be gainfully employed, are very possibly willing to pick your pocket, mug you, or kill you, for your possessions.

At that point, caution, and staying within your personal comfort zone is essential.

There have been stories (true I might add), about well meaning people who have done good things for gypsies, and ended up with their throats cut from ear to ear, when all that they offered, and gave over a prolonged period of time, wasn't enough... because they didn't offer their wedding rings, and the retirement watch the man was carrying as a "gift."

Does this speak for all gypsies? Of course not! But, as a person who wants to live to see tomorrow, explain to us how you can take the risk of being too open towards a populace that has proven to have an enormous number of it's members proven to be a serious threat to yourself and others?

If I was a Spaniard, and was raising children in Spain, I'm afraid my first priority would be to protect those children, not prove how "generously non-biased" I was.

As a threat to people, the gypsy is the strongest threat to tourists. Their organized approach to street crime makes tourists (even in larger groups) easy marks.

As for the the question of where gypsies come from, it's amazing how many possibilities. There's even some people that believe they are one of the "Lost tribes of Israel," and therefore may well be of Jewish heritage. I have no idea what is true. But I do know, "Being an American in Spain," would make me very cautious of gypsies, and their hangouts...

Wolf (Was that a good save on staying on topic MadridMan? )

Wolf, you made a very good comment and point.

Pookita, the murders that occured in Miami a long time ago, do NOT happen very often.
The US has 280 plus Million People living in this country, where Spain has 39 Million.
Which means that murders or assaults against tourists coming to the US are relatively low.
That doesn't mean that here in the US we don't have crime, we do, lots of it. But not so much against the tourist industry. But I guess I really can't say much more until I get to visit Spain this November. Then I'll really see how dangerous Gypsies are towards tourists.

Wolf,
I never said anything about racism.
However, when I'm in Spain, I think there are many "groups" that I, as a tourist, could be afraid of. From drunk "pure bread" lite, medium, and dark hooligan Spaniards to recent illegal immigrants. I could be afraid of a group of Basques, a group of Catalans, a group of anarchists, a group of fasicts, a group of communists, or even a group of socialists. I could find A LOT of reading material that would lead me to "protect" my family from such "terrible" groups. This type of argument leads to nobody because IT INVOLVES EVERBODY.

I cannot change deeply prejudiced minds, but I cannot only hope that more Spanish contact with the outside world in their own country, will force them to confront their own incredible prejudices. Maybe, very soon every Spanish town will be able to have a real African play one of the los tres reyes magos. Then, possibly they will see not only the opposite side of the minorities in their country, but also the other dark part of themselves.

Tough and hurtful I know, but greatly needed!

Toddy,

I didn't say you did. I'm just indicating there's a difference between racism and perceptions. That people often have a tendency to substitute one for the other in their interpretations of what people say.

Wolf