Hola Maestra!
Wow, thought you were writing a dissertation of ilegals and Arizona Hospitals.
I agree with MadridMan, the subject is Being an American in Spain. I guess in part this conversation of ilegals does relate to this topic. As an American in Spain you cannot avoid the immigration issue that Spain is going through. It is very similar to the one we have back home in the US.
Spain has thousands of immigrants coming into their country ilegally. They will soon have to deal with issue in a big scale.
Here in the US, the entry of ilegals into the US has been going on for hundreds of years.
No Maestra, I am not for nuking the ilegals or am I pro opening up the borders. All I saying is that the US has the ability to stop ilegals from coming into the country, but it will not do it. This is due to Economic reasons. There are people who profit from ilegals and others who lose money. Unfortunetly, in Arizona's Medical industry it seems to be losing.
However, in Texas many employers look the other way and put pressure on our US congressmen & US Senators to soften the border patrol. We issue visas, permits, extensions etc.. for undocumented workers. WE NEED THEIR LABOR & SKILLS. Many Americans don't want to work from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. under the Texas Sun, like many Hispanic immigrants do. In Texas there are more people who benefit from ilegals.
I understand that this is not the case for California & Arizona.
What the US should do is allow only immigrants who have clean records and willing to work hard. Issue working permits for them to work legally in the US and pay taxes to the fullest extent.
I'm sorry Maestra that the Hospitals in Arizona are losing funds due to the ilegal flow. But hey our US government wastes millions of dollars on stupid projects. At least, in this case we are being humanitarian.
PS Mexican immigrants into the US has declined, many ilegals are now coming from Central America & Asia.

Being an illegal American in Spain isn't the same as being an illegal alien in the U.S., but for the sake of us not getting whapped alongside the ear by MadridMan, we'll say it is...

I remember a headline I read in the San Antonio Light back in about 1980, that over 50% of the people working for contractors building houses in Texas were illegals. That was a huge number, since the building boom was still going strong, and there were about 2 million people employed in that field alone.

Since we lived in a new development near New Braunfels, I decided to check it out, and as I got to know the contractors I found out that the figure was probably understated. Their entire crews were illegal except for their foremen who could drive their vehicles because they had valid drivers licenses, and a smattering of bi-lingual Texans (mostly of Mexican-American descent) who could do translations for them.

Their reason for hiring them? They told me they were the best workers they had, dependable, did a fair day's work in the blistering sun, and last but not least, they couldn't even win a bid to build houses unless they hired illegals because the wages were too high for legal citizens. In other words, they were forced to hire these people because they had to stay competitive.

I think the biggest problem then, which I would guess still exists, is the fact that the State of Texas has done a good job of concealing how much it actually costs the taxpayers for the medical attention these workers and their families receive. To put it bluntly, there's no such thing as a free lunch, somebody has to pay for the food.

In talking to a friend, who is associated with Humana Hospitals, I found out that they only take on illegal patients because they are guaranteed payment by the government. But what fund is this coming from? How is the state raising this money? Obviously the fed isn't giving it to them. If they were, Arizona and California would also be getting funding. My guess is, they are diverting funds from other areas. As an example, the ever rising property tax issues that are beginning to bug a lot of Texans. Is the money coming from that source, or is it being diverted from oil funds? I have no idea, but I do know that there has to be some way that the state is squeezing the money out of Texans. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, On one hand I think about the cost, and on the other I see a child who needs help, and the doors of hospitals being closed to them. It's one of the worst dilemmas society has, and as time goes by, Spain will be facing it as well. I just read about the Spanish government catching nearly 1,000 illegals trying to come in from Africa, in one week. Most of them coming out of Morocco I might add. In fact, regardless of what they say, if they have no identity papers, that's where they are going through deportation.

Wolf (Who has no idea how to solve these problems. If I did, I'd certainly share it with the world.)

Tejano, I found myself pulled into your first post on immigration, and I feel a tug again! First, since we have an estimated 2-3 million illegals, saying the US collects "millions of dollars" from them isn't saying much! $1 a person would do that!

My dissertation clearly stated that according to the AZ press, the US government is NOT paying for the medical treatment of illegals, so they are not taking the money they squander on things like the mating habits of the crosseyed tree frog and spending it on humanitarian causes.

The immigration figures I saw published last week still have Mexican immigrants at #1.

We have not had an illegal immigration problem for hundreds of years because prior to 1875 there was no immigration policy at all. The US was free to whoever could get here. The first inspectors began working in 1891. Things didn't really get pulled together until 1906! They were originally trying to screen for physical and mental health problems, moved on to literacy, and then went all over the ideological place trying to decide on a "correct" policy. Until air travel it was pretty hard to sneak into the country because all ships from Europe had to stop at Ellis Island first. Those who did not pass inspection were returned home at the expense of the shipping line. So, the problem with illegal immigration as we know it is really pretty new.

This relates to Fernando's old post on American attitudes towards Mexicans AND to the understandable curiosity Spaniards have demonstrated regarding our attitudes and policies on immigration. Spain is now enjoying a pretty strong economy and is a free and progressive country. That makes it look pretty darned good to a lot of folks across the pond from us. According to the last Spaniards I talked with about immigration, Spain finds it difficult to turn people away. I understand that completely. How and where do you make the cut? There are people starving and oppressed out there, and it seems like the only decent thing to do is let them enjoy the benefits of living in a country where things are really good. If you let everyone in, how will you be able to provide for the welfare of your citizens? No country can absorb EVERYONE.

I'm curious...how do Spaniards feel about Americans who want to give up life in the US to live in Spain? Does it strike them as odd, given that a lot of the world seems to think we have it all here? Do they have feelings about who they would like to have emigrate? What is their policy...are there quotas?

I agree with you Maestra. In Spain we are having a similar inmigration problem, specially because Spain is the "gate to Europe" and lots of people from Africa try to enter illegally to Europe through Spain.

I think both Spain and the US have similar inmigration policies. As long as you have a job contract, you can get a residence permit. The problem is that none of those people entering illegally have a job contract and that means that the government have to afford them.

NGO are complaining all the time and saying that Spaniards used to emigrate to other parts of Europe and to America when Spanish economy was not as good as it is now. However, they forgot to mention that those Spaniards emigrate legally with a job contract.

---



In my opinion, the reason why they want to live in Spain is because we know better how to enjoy life and have fun. There's no point in having a lot of money if you don't have the time, the place or the people to enjoy of your situation.


As long as there are enough work for everybody and people who come here do it to work and not to become pickpockets or drugdealers, I guess nobody will complain.

As for policies, I think they are similar in all developed countries and yes, there are quotas.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Antonio ]

LaMaestra:

We are, as you well say, in a similar position, and, as Antonio says, it is mostly due to our position as "Gateway to Europe".

Spanish people do not oppose to inmigration, since it is obvious that many of these workers take jobs that the spaniards have not filled for months/years because of low salaries, extreme exploitation from owners (i.e. people from Marocco in andalusian fields), ... However, there is an increasing percentage of people who has been told of the "endless riches" of this country (to sell the ticket and illegal services they supply to introduce him here), who come here with no intention to work - as they did in their country - and those who come here to work, but find it much less financially rewarding than they thought and join criminal groups (drugs, robbery, pickpockets, ...).

The number of killings and the crimes said above have increased slowly but in a growing rate the late years. I wouldn't be surprised if they had doubled in the last 7/8 years, the years of the massive inmigration.

People is slowly beggining to relate these facts, and getting a bit less favourable to inmigrants, which is no good for the many others who work honestly.

People is also begginnig to make differences between them, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of the reputation the have created. It is easier for a peruvian to hire a flat than for an ecuatorian, and for ecuatorians than for a colombian. We see here that the peruvians who have came are more violent people than the average spanish, but it is not common between them to see fights ending in deaths like people from Ecuador. About colombians, I could tell you a lot. In Burgos, there may be a hundred in a town of 200.000, and they are enough to have fed up the inhabitants and make its long centuries' calm nights into a lottery on who is punched or slabbed.

However it is difficult to obtain a work outside Spain to enter legally, I think the government is doing the right thing. It is the spanish firms the ones who have to recruit them in their countries. This is the only way to receive working people not mixed with the sh** of all countries.

About what Tejano and LaMaestra were discussing, I say it is not fair the pronblems hospitals have, but I am pretty sure they (as a community) pay a lot more in taxes when buying, or in the other cases mentioned.
The right thing should be having them legally there, but while it is not this way, they are contibuting to lower prices' apartments, or services (like restaurants), they are paying taxes - I guess Tejano meant billions, and he may be short in his calculations - that should be enough to pay those hospitals for their care.

Besides, prevention of illnesses is good for all of us. Imagine an epidemic that is not noticed or controlled until there are 50.000 infected people in Tucson or Houston!

That is why - I believe - every spanish has the right to a minimum health assistance. They will take out your broken teeth free, to ease the pain, but if you want sth. extra, you'll have topay for it unless you arte given a help because you're very poor. This covers too the foreign workers - they pay for it - as long as they are legal. I think they would be helped too if they were not, at no price, but they don't take the risk that they may be pointed out to the police.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

i would like to add something here. by the 8 months i have lived here, this is my impression of what spaniards think of americans.

1. spaniards constantly ask me if americans know where spain is on the map. they think americans don´t even know where spain is on the map, thinking we are not all that educated.

2. they constantly flip out and are baffled when they find out what my name is knowing i an american. ( my name is Maria Cristina Barrero-Espinosa) they ask me how i have that name if i am an american. they think everyone is a cowboy or something. i try to explain to them there is everything in the the united states.

3. they think we all eat hamburgers and hot dogs everyday. (i haven´t eaten a hamburger in over a year!!)

4. they think everyone is fat in the united states.

5. they think everyone is white, blond and blue eyed. they are astonished when i show them pictures of my friends who are korean, dark, filipino and so forth.

6. they think we all use laundrymats to wash our clothes.

7. they think we are all rather wealthy and live well.

there is more but i have to goo!!!! got to go to work!!

Well, I wanted to answer to our view of N.Americans, but I ran out of time.

Now, I will use MM98 as a scheme:

1 - It is said, that N.A. couldn't find Spain in the map. I always thought it depends on the education received. I can point 9 countries out of 10 in the map, but there are some I can't do it (some african ones or other very tiny), so, I can understand that.

2 Maria Cristina's names and surnames are very spanish. Through films - from where we learn most of this, except for the small percentage who have visited you- we know there are many latins, but their names use to begin by Ricky or Judith, ..., and the surnames are of a mixed origin ( in Argentina, italian and spanish, in Peru and Brazil,some are japanese or german or british, in Brazil, portuguese and some spanish too, ...) but hers could be from the next village you see in the road.

3 We do believe you eat a lot of fast-food - I read somebody in this forum complaining that in the North there was no pizza or hot dogs for kids. In my opinion, it is abad way to feed them, but ... Anyway, in the States, people use to eat out (lunch), and you can not eat at a french or italian every lunch. I have seen a lot of sandwich/burguer/pizza/doghnuts.

4 - There is a rumour that most americans are fat, but in TV you see everybody slim. I had no idea, but the people I saw in towns were average. I think even the media said there is a lot of very fat people in the States, so people tend to believe that, but they are not very certain.

5 - The people I know, knows very well (always through films) that there are several ethnias and that black and mexican latinos are the major minorities.

6-They think you use laundrymats, ..., well many do, don't they? Unless there is a cleaners' close by. Again laundries are shown in films. We always wash at home, and iron at home.

7-We tend to believe that you have a comfortable/good standard of living.

I personally think you are hard-working, reliable, punctual, professional at work, free but only in the space the community and its rules allow, proud, colder than us, tend to believe everybody has to know English, free from some of the ethic principles we have, liberal when partying, conservative in family, ...

Ignacio,

Some people use laundromats, but they are usually renting an apartment. Americans who own homes, or rent one, usually have a washer and dryer. It's rare by comparison to Spain, to find people hanging clothes outside, or on an indoor rack to dry.

What some Americans don't understand when they go to Spain, is that our clothing has a tendency to be made out of heavier material. When we wash them in Spain, it takes much longer to get them dry. That's why my wife and I have opted to go to laundries where you drop the clothes off, and pick them up, washed and pressed while in Spain.

We are a nation of overweight people by most standards. But in respect, the average American is also taller. That's why we have so many stores in the U.S. that sell nothing but clothes for what they call "Big & Tall" people. Even the chain stores are getting better about having them available, and it's giving us a much wider selection to choose from.

Yes! We are a nation of fast food restaurants. If there's a busy intersection, chances are there's at least one or two burger joints, Taco Bell, or subway sandwich shop. A lot of that has to do with our lifestyle. We can't seem to stop long enough to sit down and eat a real meal. We've lost touch with the family values of the whole family gathering together for meals on a regular basis. Part of it is because of the activities that kids have at school, and the fact that they are on the go all the time. The rest of it, because not everyone wants to, or has enough energy to cook a full meal every night.

Generally speaking Americans are hard workers. We get very little vacation time compared to the European community. Most employers in the U.S. seem to think that people should be happy with 1 or 2 weeks vacation, even after four or five years of work. That's not much free time for people to enjoy. But industry and business in the U.S. really doesn't care about the people in general. To most employers, a person is just a body that fills a need for them, and they will hire the person who is willing to work the hardest, for the least amount of money, and benefits. Because of these shortcomings, we're finding that a rift is beginning to develop between employers and employees, that is changing he work force. People are not as punctual, and call in sick at a higher rate each year. Even professional people, like Engineers, are changing jobs. A study done in the mid 90s indicated that the average Mechanical Engineer stayed with one employer for an average of about 4 1/2 years. Twenty years earlier, that figure was over 11 years. You might say we're a nation in constant motion, changing jobs, and being unhappy way too much of the time.

As for our educational system, we do have problems. Most of it deals with teachers often having too many students in a class, too many classes to teach, and a lack of understanding on the part of taxpayers that what these people do is a thankless job. We even end up cutting down on the available classes, and that's when the trouble begins. We can't give them enough time learning rudimentary things like geography. My guess is, there's an enormous number of Americans that can't find Spain on the map.

On the face of things, we appear to have a good standard of living. But that's not true for everyone. I'm afraid that there's way too many people that are trying to survive on incomes below the poverty level. As a guess, there are more Americans, by percentage, that are below the poverty level in the U.S., than there are in Spain. I'm not certain about that, but I'm making an educated guess.

If I was to compare the way people live in Spain to the U.S., I'd say we break even. The advantages we have in spendable income, and toys, like cars, boats, motorcycles, and a TV in every room, is offset by the values that Spaniards place on enjoying family, and simpler things that are relaxing. We're too busy running up debt, then sweating out the next payments to enjoy what we have, as much as we should. As an example; We hear it on one TV ad about credit cards. The average American family is roughly $8,000 in debt on credit cards alone. That's incredible!

Our ethnic background is amazing. I think the best way to describe it is the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I guess that's who we are. We're everyone, and even though immigration into the U.S. isn't as easy as it once was (I have a copy of the Ship's manifest when one pair of my grandparents arrived from Germany in 1895.), we are still that nation of mongrels that were tossed here with no idea what lay ahead. People who couldn't speak the language, and often had no idea where they were going to get their next meal. All they knew was this was the place to go, at that time, to be free.

In many respects, we are Spain, France, Germany, the UK, China, Japan, Korea.... the list is endless. We are a melting pot from the world. In a sense, if you come right down to it, we are you, and you are one of us.

Sorry I wrote so much.

Wolf

Now it was your turn to give a sociology and history lesson.

I will say it in spanish, not to lose the rhyme: "A la cama no te irás, sin saber una cosa más" - You'll never go to bed wiyhout learning something.

I've always heard it this way: "Nunca te acostarás, sin saber una cosa más"