I too am a non-smoker who prefers not be saturated w/ the stuff. After spending 2 weeks in Spain I was pleasently surprised that the smoking thing was not excessive. I'd often look around while sitting in a cafe and did not see anyone smoking. There were no smoking signs in some stores and we went to Joy Eslava disco and found their ventilation as good or better than lots of places in the US

No, smoking is not universal. I do not normally smoke, but sometimes I yield to local tradition and go with the flow.

This time it was to light up a puro at the bullfight. The fight was after the season, and attended less by tourists than by natives. Upon lighting up I got a terrifically dirty look from a lady nearby.

Since she was downwind of me, I extinguished my cigar and contented myself with enjoying the small paper cup of brandy I had obtained from a vendor. In a way I was happy to see that some Spaniards not only did not smoke but objected to others smoking in their presence.

I had feared that one day every Spaniard in Madrid would--as a result of the combined effects of air pollution and smoking-end their existence in one enormous pandemic of emphysema.

I was pleased to have been proved wrong.
Cantabene

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Wolf- Unfortunately, the only phone behind "the gate" is the one inside the California Institution for Men. I'll be thanking you to limit your comments on Chino. I've been to Rockford, you know... :p

Since I started this thread so many weeks ago, I thought it would be useful to add my own perspective on the issue after having enjoyed 24 days in Spain.
First, my wife Elizabeth and I were quite comfortable. From some of the posted responses, we got practical answers to our question, and that helped Elizabeth form a mindset so that what smoking we encountered rarely bothered her.
I was actually very surprised and relieved at how less invasive the smells of smoke are now than they were when I was in Spain last. I had lived in Spain 30 odd years ago, and what I feared for my Tobacco sensitive wife was those overwhelming smells of the strong tobacco of the old Spanish men who rolled their own in the late 60‘s, the smells that caused my first wife to vomit her dinner across the cement platform of the Madrid Metro when she was newly pregnant with my first son. Most of that strong tobacco is gone, and, sadly, so are those old Spanish men. What I found instead was the smoking of American tobacco about on the same level as what I remembered in the USA when I was a kid in the 50’s.
That being said, younger travelers should take into account our ages and our preferences for daytime travels and visits rather than the late evening bar scenes or discos. If you are young and bothered by smoke, I expect packed, late night party places would be more of a difficulty than our itinerary.
Our first night in Madrid (when we stayed out our latest) we did leave Cuevas de Champinones when the smoke thickened in one very small room, but not until we had gathered all the details from our neighbors, a smoking young man and woman from Valencia who were in Madrid to attend the next day’s wedding of his cousin in the cathedral along side The Palacio Real. Then we wandered down the street to see a Flamenco show with very little smoke, and ended the night in Las Cuevas de Guitarra, the atmosphere of which was packed with the songs of colorfully outfitted Spanish student singers, but not with enough smoke to spoil the fine flavor of chorizo frito.
Smoking did not affect our time in Toledo, Segovia, El Escorial, our last two weeks in spent in Loredo or time wandering other small Northern beaches, the Basque country, Santander. It did not seem to bother us much.
The other issues raised in the outpouring of board emotion since my first post are separate from that original, practical issue of whether an American non smoker might feel comfortable touring in Spain, and I would suggest that the complexity in the board’s search for a satisfying answer is reflected in the fact that Elizabeth and I have now made our long journey, come back home, and still find the post alive with comment. Another post on whether meals of wild boar in El Pardo was still available had a much shorter lifespan as did a post on the award winning Goya film in the media section.
On the issue of whether smoking is a good thing for people, the evidence seems clear in this generation. It was still being denied when I was young. Now we know that of all the possible preventative health changes we can make, including changes in exercise and diet, reducing first hand smoke is statistically the FIRST most effect step we can take toward preventing disease, and statistically the THIRD most effective step we can take is reducing second hand smoke. This latter seems to make the analogous arguments to brandy or rich food far too simplistic. Someone’s Torres 10 does not effect my health the way their tobacco smoke does. And tobacco, unlike food or alcohol, has not been shown to have any redeeming qualities, except those false romantic ones so encouraged, in most cases invented, by the tobacco industry in order to make money.
On the issue of whether individual American travelers should have the right to have anything to say to their Spanish hosts on smoking, thread arguments also seem at times rather simplistic, and in some cases incredibly naive. The smoking habits of the Spanish are a result of American influence on their culture. Tobacco did not originate in Spain, and current smoking habits in Spain are fostered by a large American tobacco industry which is losing its historical right to easily addict American people and so spending more and more time addicting the youth in foreign countries. As American tax payers and stock holders, we are already pushing tobacco values on Spanish people. The Marboro Cowboy is not a Matador.
Analogous arguments to fine drink are again heavy in irony. How much finer a thing it is for Spain to produce and export to the USA their vino tinto, a daily glass of which might well extend our longevity, than for the USA to export American cigarettes, a clear killer with no medicinal use. Perhaps we should feel less individual shame at speaking out against cigarettes, and more national shame at killing for money.
But then I come from a very different generation. Thirty odd years ago when I was young and crazy sixties kids hit the highways of an isolated and repressed Spanish culture with our long hair, tattered blue jeans, flower shirts and liberal values, we were not too sensitive to the shock that might have on our hosts. And that experience tells me not to underestimate the Spanish ability to be tolerant and welcome new thoughts, even those very different from whatever is current practice. We were not judged in those days, but tolerated and often enjoyed, sometimes as outrageous jokes, and other times as great party companions. Certainly the American girls were fully enjoyed when they welcomed the traditionally aggressive advances of Spanish boys, as shocking as their sexual liberation was to the Spanish of that time. If we wanted judgement in those days, we could visit Germany. Spain was very “cool.”
Now those Spanish boys are gone. My Madrid born friend tells me many of the topless girls I saw on Northern beaches pursue the boys now, and in his slightly disapproving tone, I suspect he is a bit envious and wishes he were young again and in the new Spain. In thirty years, Spain has changed more than I could ever have imagined. To have known it thirty years ago and to have not seen it until this month was a Rip Van Winkle like surprise and shock. Most of the change is influence from outside what was then traditional Spanish culture.
The traveler’s issue of how much to be a quiet observer and how much to share personal value is complex and difficult for all people, and especially for Americans. There is no easy answer to the smoking question in Spain, women’s rights in Afghanistan, who controls the rain forest in South America, and no easy answers here in the USA either as the invasion of Hispanic people and culture again affects our own values, politics and culture.
From my perspective, I find that being sincerely friendly and respectfully good humored has always enabled me to say critical and even outrageous things and still be accepted.
Sure is nice to be alive still to see, taste and experience it all.
And what an amazing miracle these boards are to enable such cross cultural and cross generational communication. Thanks again Madrid man for such incredible luxury. Elizabeth and I will share pieces of our trip in other more practical posts.

Elizabeth's PS:

Just a quick note from the smoke sensitive wife, Elizabeth. One of our guide books described the Spanish people as outgoing and always looking to be together for fun and conversation. We saw this and while the smoke was not so obnoxious as to be bothersome, it bothered me to think about these beautiful, expressive young people with illness caused by cigarettes when they reached their sixties and seventies. One way the older Spanish seem to maintain their health and vitality is through walking. We spent one evening dining with a wonderfully vibrant 94 year old Madrid native, who was not a smoker, but she was a great walker. I agree with my husband that we want to let the world know of the dangers of smoking, while learning from all cultures their particular joys in life and secrets to keeping their health in old age.

Dewey says:
"Tobacco did not originate in Spain, and current smoking habits in Spain are fostered by a large American tobacco industry which is losing its historical right to easily addict American people and so spending more and more time addicting the youth in foreign countries. As American tax payers and stock holders, we are already pushing tobacco values on Spanish people."

I too lived in Spain in the 60s. At that time, and I don't know if it is true today,
the importation and sale of tobacco was a monopoly of the Spanish government.

You could buy American cigarettes, but their cost was always much higher than that of the domestic products. I recall that many of the most enthusiastic smokers smoked the less expensive "Ducados"--very potent, with a distinctive aroma that identified them immediately to anyone unfortunate enough to get caught downwind of someone smoking them.

If you ate in a fine restaurant that offered a selection of cigars at the end of the meal, there was invariably a box of diminutive cigars for the ladies--who sometimes smoked them. Of course, Spain's one-time possession, Cuba, remained a principal supplier of cigars.

Even before the 60s, when American influence on Spain was tiny in comparison with what it is today, smoking had long been ingrained in the Spanish cutlure. Lighting up seemed almost a coming-of-age thing for Spanish males.

Spain certainly didn't need the USA to provide it's people with with their smoking habits.
Cantabene

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Hey all you non-smokers! Come visit Ottawa, Canada. Last week a non-smoking by-law came into effect. The city is now officially considered smoke free in all public places. This includes: pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants, bingo halls, bowling alleys, shopping centres etc... Perhaps this trend will catch on in other places. I must admit that we found smoking in Spain to be more popular that other regions of Europe. And I can't stand the smell of European cigarettes.

Can14, that's what we've had here for some time! We have some bars that tried to skirt the issue claiming they are "clubs"! It is illegal here for parents who smoke to even carry cigarettes in their PURSES onto a school campus! That's not general policy, is it?

Although I agree that smoking is a serious health problem, I wonder just how far people can go in supressing the rights of others. The whole concept of what a public place is has evolved into areas like parks, and onto streets, in some areas.

After cigarettes are totally banned, what will come next? Crosses & crucifixes? After all, they can "poison" minds, making people think about religious aspects of life. How about taking away the rights of women to wear perfume? I personally find some of the smells nauseating. After that, why not ban bald headed men from being out in public? They can send a bad message to youngsters, making them feel self conscious. Hey! What about people who have health problems? We don't want all those "crips" running around making us feel uncomfortable in public do we? Then... let's tell people that we don't want to see them out in public with children under ten years of age. They can be so unruly at a younger age, and a shriek in a restaurant... or in a store... so uncouth!

Yes! Let's continue to take away civil liberties. Someday we may be able to say we are the "models of perfection." Anyway, the 5% or less who fit the mold of what perfection is, will be able to say it.

Where in 'ell is Carrie Nation when we need her most?

El Gato (Who thinks people go too damned far imposing their personal wills on others.)

El GAto, I am a sincere defender of the individual rights, and would agree with 90% of your post if the topic was other.

But I hate tobacco's smell, it makes me rather sick.

I have had to bear being suffocated by it all of my life.

It is not like a parfume, which you may like or not, nor it is like a religious idea, that should be proven it is dangerous (tiny red line between religions and sects) before forbidding it. Tobacco is bad from the first inhalation, it is not like eating, that is bad only when you do it in excess.

There is plenty of literature on wether this has been proven or not, and I am not going to add anything now, but, if anybody gets drunk, it is his/her problem, as long as he/she doesn't steal sth. from me to buy that drug, but if somebody smokes close to me or in the same room, he is not only increasing (in my opinion) his possibilities to get a cancer, but also mine, which, I think, means he is invading MY rights.

Following your line, ..., drugs should be free, because we don't have the right to forbid them to people. There must be a line between public health (and safety) and individual rights, and it must be the people who must decide wether it moves up or down a certain level.

We people are not very clever, as a whole, but at least are independent, not like politicians.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio,

You're wrong about the alcohol. Drunk drivers kill a lot more people than second hand smoke would ever kill. Studies have shown that well over 50% of all fatal accidents are caused by someone who is intoxicated. So, at the same time as tobacco is eliminated, alcohol should be added to the list. Of course that wouldn't wash, would it? People like their booze. But is that fair? Eliminate one and not the other?

As for the question of second hand smoke, I did not say that public places like restaurants or bars are included in my concern. I indicated public places like parks, and on the street, where second hand smoke is not an issue to be concerned with. This is no better than forcing one person's will on another.

If you don't like the smell of a smoker, because of the smell on their clothes, that's your problem, just as much as my having to smell a perfume which I despise on a woman. Don't mix an enclosed atmosphere with public sidewalks, streets, or parks. That's not a valid argument. The push to include the outside areas, and even the privacy of one's own car is an absurdity. Especially when the problem of people driving down the road with a cell phone plastered on their ear, and not paying attention, is a far greater hazard.

The statement you indicated... that I would condone drugs... not true. Don't put words in my mouth, or use analogies that don't compare. But I do believe that there are circumstances where they should be legal. As an example, a person who is going through chemotherapy could be helped by smoking marijuana. It would reduce, and nearly eliminate the vomiting, and other side effects. But because there is such a lobby against marijuana, and against smoking, this usage is not acceptable. Patients, some of them terminal, are forced to accept an archaic rule. Once again, the purist lobby is so strong that legislatures are afraid to take a stand in favor of this usage, simply because of the ignorance of people who associate smoking/marijuana as bad... nothing ever being acceptable with either.

I smoke. So does my wife. But, we do not smoke in our house, or anyone else's, even if they are smokers. We go outside to smoke. It doesn't make any difference if there's thunder and lightning, if we "need a cigarette" that bad, we have to brave it. But, rest assured, we have been cutting back further and further, and are near the point of being able to quit, without starting again.

We also sit in the non-smoking areas in restaurants, since we don't want to be tempted to smoke. But, this by our choice, not by an edict that someone else has given us.

The question of cult vs religion is one that isn't easily defined. Back in the early 60s, when John F. Kennedy was seeking the nomination from the Democratic Party, and when he was running for President, there was a movement among some organized religions to keep him out of office. They would tell their people that Catholics belonged to a cult, and that the Pope would be living in the White house within thirty days after JFK was elected. They went so far as to go door to door handing out flyers telling about all the "bad things" that would happen when the Catholic Church took over the U.S.

At that point, in my opinion, they breached the contract of seperation between church and state. If these churches had been the decision makers, the Catholic Church would have been labeled a cult, and would have been summarily shut down. There's a fine line between religion and cults. A difficult one.

I believe in civil liberties very strongly. At the same time, I think there should be a tempering of what is, and isn't acceptable to impose on others. But, don't believe for a heartbeat that I'm an anarchist like your last paragraph alluded to. I'm far from it. You shouldn't make those assumptions, they are way off base. I often defend issues from a point of view that I totally disagree with, because every point of view has a right to be supported through discussion, and not hidden away because they are unpopular.

El Gato