Well put CaliBasco...

Leche

An open dialogue is always a good thing. I hope we get to that point some day. I hope Spain gets to that point some day...

One thing, and just listen before you get all riled up, okay Leche? . With my own eyes, I have seen people openly and not so openly discriminated against, to their knowledge. The percentage of times these people actually said anything was probably around 2-3%. People tolerate a lot more than you think before challengin others. You have to choose your battles wisely, who wants to fight that exhausting battle all the time?

Therefore, I don't really think the term racism is thrown around nearly as much as actual racism and prejudice are... Sometimes it is used incorrectly, and that is where an open dialogue is important. Nonetheless, the fact that someone may misinterpret your actions should not invalidate legitimate claims of dicrimination of others. Unfortunately, I think that is what happens way too often.

Having the ability to really talk and think about it is really important, and unusual. For one, people don't really listen very well, and don't want their ideas threatened.

Look at the thread about ETA. How many times did Calibasco repeat, and repeat and repeat that he was not supporting the violence and terrorism by ETA. His assertion that some of the feelings of friction between Basques and Spaniards are justified by a history of negative behavior by both parties went virtually unheard, while people got all upset about his defending and "being brainwashed" by ETA.


We humans are such passionate ittle creatures, aren't we?

Sheba,

Just to let you know when you make friends in Spain, you will experience new things like my daughter. This is an e-mail, I just received from her.

"Last weekend I went to a friend's house in the mountains, and though they
all lived in pretty modern suburban houses there, I was quite surprised
and totally impressed when my friend's mom made paella (typical Spanish
rice dish) in the fireplace, with actual fire. How often do you see that???
They have two fireplaces, one upstairs in the living room, and one in the
basement for cooking. It was this great mix of the old/traditional world
and the modern technological world that we live in. In the same house
where there was a tv, computer, etc, they were cooking in the fire. Pretty
cool, huh? And the food was really good! (nice change from the bland meals
I get in my house here).

Receiving this e-mail, makes me look forward to see Spain next month.

I love Nicole! (In a bulletin-board-only sort of way )...I mean that you seem to look at people's posts in a very open way. One of the big problems in general society today is our inability to listen to others.

BTW Nicole, in response to your question as to "who wants to fight that exhausting battle all the time"? Two Words: Jesse Jackson. According to him, the Florida ballot was "racist"...

Awh..

I am staying away from the rest of that though.

Wow! One day I looked at this part of the bulletin board and there was something like 30-some odd responses (the file was on fire 'fer chrissakes!) and the next there was 50-something! You folks have done some serious writing on this subject! So, I thought I would try to respond.

Naturally LECHE(and CALISBO) if someone called me a racist, I think I would be a bit upset. It is a really powerful word that is used to describe a really powerful idea. So, I can see why you would be upset.

But I have to disagree with the basic premise that racism is just about a one-on-one relationship between people. That's prejudice, not racism. Racism is really a system of oppression. That is why it can be used to corrupt so many entirely different groups of people. It is in the same vein as sexism. It corrupts without people realizing that it is corrupting and it survives because so many people refuse to believe that they are affected by the system.

For instance, I don't think as a black person that I could CHOOSE to live in an entirely black neighborhood. In fact, I don't know of any ENTIRELY BLACK neighborhoods,(and please don't respond with examples like Cabrini-Green as these are multi-racial ghettos, not neighborhoods as we traditionally think of them), but I know of many ENTIRELY WHITE neighborhoods. Why is this? Think about how this came about? Was this because people of color just forgot to move into your neighborhood? Was it because people of color just don't have the money to live in your neighborhood? Was this due to historic zoning laws and past acts of racism? How did this come about?

I worked on a racism and affordable housing committee here in Minneapolis that investigated and researched housing patterns within the Twin Cities. Just to let you know, the patterns are not accidents! Entirely white neighborhoods are NOT accidents, and please don't try to convince me that they are.

In my lifetime (since living in all-white neighborhoods in Minnesota), I have experienced racism in housing approximately five times in some subtle and not so subtle ways, going from a giant pile of garbage on our doorstep when I was kid with a note saying: "Go back to Africa Nigger" to a landlord who accused me of bringing roaches into the building, even though I am a degreed professional. So, you can see why this particular issue is close to my heart.

You can claim ignorance all you want, get blue in the face, feel like the term is bandied about too much, close your eyes, and hold your breath, but you cannot change the facts.

The fact is that the system is perpetuated when people deny ANY responsibility for their role in it. And that means EVERYONE.

Concerning blacks being called racists: if racism is a system of oppression, how can the oppressed be racist? In order to oppress, to truly have power-over, which is what oppression means, then you must have power. Roll your eyes here at the word oppression, but it does oppression does not just mean the extreme Auschwitz-type scenario, it can take many forms, just like aggression.

Now, I don't know about you all, but when I turn on the t.v., I know who is in power. When I open the newspaper, I know who is in power. When I look to who leads this nation, I know who is in power. When I go to the doctor, get my car fixed, rent an apartment, or even buy a home, I know who is in power.

Please do not try to convince me that this is not significant or that I'm just seeing what I want to see or that the few tokens out there should be representative of something more than it is or that I must have an agenda here in saying this.

This is how the system works, has always worked, will always work, until someone besides people of color SEE also. (THANK YOU NICOLE!). If someone were to come up to me today and say: "Hey, you're not giving enough!" I can get blue in the face and call them hypocrites and really just try to divert the attention away from myself, or I can look at what they are trying to say and really LISTEN to what I SEE.

Yeah, I know, what kind of wacko thinks like this, eh?

To MCCLARKE: Thank you for your uplifting words. I really appreciate the stories about your daughter. I received your e-mail so long ago and wanted to thank you then, but unfortunately, I never did. I apologize. You have such a delightful way of writing and I hope your trip to Spain goes well.

Sheba,

Your comments are very insightful. With regards to your Spain trip in the future, my daughter's advise is try to have sort of a command of the Spanish language. She said being a black american in spain who speaks the language is an asset. Now she speaks Spanish like a Madrilena (with a twang). Recently, the director of her program gave her a job to tutor two spanish children (7 and 11 yearsl old) in Spanish. She gets paid $25.00 an hour. For these Spanish children, it is their first time to meet and interact with a "black" person on a one-to-one basis. This interaction between these children and my daughter opens a new door to these children -- change of attitudes towards "black". Not only is she tutoring these young children, she also teaches at a girls' high school, once week, U.S. geography. My daugher could not believe how opportunities (in Nicole's word) comes her way to improve perception on blacks by spaniards and at the same time,she earns some money for her "menu del dia". She will spend her first christmas away from home this year. I was concerned but she told me she already has so many invitations to choose from where to spend the holidays. The children's parent that she is tutoring has invited her to join them in France at their ski resort home. Well, my daughter does not ski because when she was young, we forbade her not to ski inorder to protect her fingers since she was taking violin lessons (She is also a violinist). I told her go with the family and learn to ski. After her Spain experience, she will come back to the U.S., with so much experience to cherish. As a mother, Sheba, I am very proud that my daughter's trip to Spain is not just for fun but also as an agent to change Spaniards' perception on "black american".
I am really excited to visit Spain next month and spend the holidays with my daughter. I will keep you inform of my Spain experience. I am doing a crash course on the language even though my daughter is fluent in Spanish.

Happy Thanksgiving!

ok Sheba, I understand that you are very upset and don't want us to "try to convice you" (read: close minded)....isn't trying to convince us what you were doing?

But here's the thing....there are less blacks than whites. Sorry but it's true. Just the numbers show you that there will be more "white" neighborhoods than "black" neighborhoods. What does this mean? Probably nothing.

Like I said, I don't avoid blacks and I think anyone who would is a racist. I just like to think of everyone here as an American. Period.

Leche

[This message has been edited by Leche (edited 11-17-2000).]

Sheba, don't oppress me by calling me Calisbo. Doggone it, I'm Calibasco!

Seriously though, I disagree with your definition of racism per se as being a 'system' of opression. Racism is the thought that race determines physical traits and that because of this, one race is, or can be described as, inherently superior to others. Racism can be practiced by any group towards any other, whether a majority or not. Racism is an idea that is acted upon, not necessarily the actions themselves.

It seems we have something in common, even though our racial background is different: I also grew up in Minnesota, and could see "who was in power". The reason there, however, is that Minnesota was settled by Scandinavians and Germans, not slaveholders, and therefore has very little African history. It also has very little history of being diverse in the 21st-century definition (which seems to imply all skin tones must be present in order for a society to truly be 'diverse'). That's racial diversity, but what of cultural or ideological diversity? Is that unimportant? I always joke with friends that Minnesota's idea of diversity is whether you're Swedish, Norwegian or Danish.

Since coming to L.A., I've seen that racism is alive and well on a personal level in all ethnic groups. Unfortunately, racism knows no ethnic bounds, and no particular ethnicity seems to have a monopoly on it.

The issue in the U.S. is whether or not those in the majority have conspired against particular ethnicities in an effort to oppress. I think that this is what you refer to in your post. Maybe I don't 'see' the 'system' as you do. Maybe I'm just naive enough to expect the best in others and strive to put forth the best in my own dealings with everyone. I don't think you could ask a single person who has met me whether I judged them by 'the color of their skin' in lieu of the 'content of their character', yet I live in this 'racist system' of which you speak. We can be a part of a system without being a participant or perpetrator of it.

Whew...that was long and I didn't even mention Spain once. Maybe we're all off the track here...sorry!!! We should go to MinnesotaMan.com for discussions on the U.S., no?

P.S. Where in Minnesota did you live? I grew up in White Bear Lake. We would have taken the guy that put that crap on your step OUT! That really makes me mad that this sort of stuff still happens ANYWHERE...

I'm just going to write a line or two b/c this a quite the complex subject. Racism is an institution; a system. People can also be racist, but only if they are in a position of economic power. People often interchange the words prejudiced and racist. They are quite different. Spain's institutions are racist too. Why do most Gitanos live on the outskirts of town? One could say that that's where they want to be... To simply recognize the fact that we live in racist societies is the first step to change. To see the world through rose colored glasses, saying that "I'm not racist. I don't see color" denies that deep seeded problems exist. We don't want to be racist(most of us) but by nature of our societies, most Anglos (in the US at least) are, and not necesarily consciously. I'll stop now.
Have a great weekend everyone!!

[This message has been edited by Jen (edited 11-17-2000).]