Nicole says:
"I have found that in every country, there is always some group that felt to be inferior by the dominant culture, and whether or not people want to, they have all sorts of ideas in their heads about that group."

It is not necessary to be thought of as "inferior." It is only necessary to be thought of as different. And to the extent that peoples of differing ethnicities cling to and amplify their differences, they will continue to be thought of as different.
Cantabene

Yeah. I hear ya, I just don't think there are too many societies that are able to view differences without applying a heirarichal value to those differences.

Then again I am not an expert. There are a lot places I haven't seen and a lot places I have seen that I haven't spent any length of time. so...

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

About that teary reminiscing of Spain. Don't get too teary. Spaniards, like humans everywhere, can be as ugly as anyone anywhere. Note the history of their civil war.

Tourists to a country different from their own may be charmed, enchanted, amused by the differences and the pleasant surprises. But live anywhere long enough and you will find that no peoples are devoid of a dark side.

Still, I've observed that what is wrong with Spaniards is common to most peoples. But what is good about them can be unique.
Cantabene



[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 11-17-2000).]

Wow! What a great discussion. I think everyone who has responded represents differing viewpoints that are worth taking into consideration.

I apologize to Calibasco for the name thing. I am usually pretty good with names, but didn't know if going back and checking would stop my train of thought. I spent a good part of my life in Shoreview, Moundsview, Brooklyn Park, and St. Paul, and now Minneapolis, to answer your question. I have been to White Bear Lake only once and was scared out of my mind when I saw the rows of American Flags and many, many people wearing cowboy hats, but then that is my prejudice working because I was treated somewhat well. Not embraced, but tolerated well, but I think this is a Scandanavian trait towards strangers in general (In General, but not all Scandanavians are like this!) And again, even though we have disagreed on many things before, I have to disagree with you now. The Scandanavians did not "settle" Minnesota. The Native Americans were first, then came the French, then the Scandanavians came. They were simply the only ones who could take the weather. And again, from the beginning, blacks were here in Minnesota. Blacks were here in America who weren't slaves from the very beginning. You did not have to live in a slave-holding state to see blacks. There were free blacks living in Minnesota as well as all of North America. It's just that our perception of history is that there wasn't enough to be historically recorded. This is inaccurate history. But that is another story that I would like to discuss with anyone at any time (Minnesota Historical Society has great information on this).

Leche, thank you for your responses. The fact that you are willing to respond, says that you are willing to discuss and that is a good thing, even if we will probably never come to an agreement about this issue, I respect your passion for the subject. You fight with teeth, as they say, and that is good. But picking good fights is also an admirable skill. The statistics are outweighing us as we speak. In twenty years, there will be more people of color in America than caucasian people, so this will be an argument worth watching. p.s. when I said "please do not try to convince me of that..." I meant precisely those points that I was referring to in that sentence because I had experienced so much to support those arguments I was making. I am always open to discussion, really. I learn all the time in my classes to argue the other person's point first, so I am used to argument. I love learning about other people, even if it kills my darlings (my own prescribed ideals), as they say in the writing world. Please do not feel that I was trying to bait you, call you anything that you are not, or make YOU feel inferior. Quite the contrary, I am only wishing to share my experiences, as I'm certain that you were doing. If I may make a serious (and not in any way meant to be snide) suggestion, you should read Frederick Douglas. He was great at arguments and discussion.

Nicole, I can't tell you how much I respect your viewpoint. Really, even if I were arguing the counterpoint, you are always fair and precise in manner. It is really refreshing and really helps to keep me in line. I feel very strongly about this subject, because I was raised in a self-loathing environment. It has taken me, as a black woman, some twenty-odd years to fight that image of being black and dumb and exotic. I am still working on this image that is projected onto me; so it is nice to have someone come along and tell me to remember my audience and to remember how to speak in a civil and respect tone. Thank you for presenting a template for decent rhetoric (action).

Cantabane (sp?--AGAIN SORRY), I wish that I could say I chose to be different. But I really believe that my environment sculpted me, and not the other way around (see previous comments about Minnesota made earlier). Now it is my responsibility to take those things I have been given and shape my future, which means embracing my difference and everyone else's, and not just tolerating them. I have no fear of being different, but I do have a fear of being killed or hurt or made to feel inferior for being different. What you are essentially saying is that as long as people who are different just begin to act normal, then they won't have any problems. At least that's what I hear, you may not have meant this. But maybe it is the other way around? Maybe it is that as long as people who are normal begin to act different, we will have no problems. And I don't know if it's so much that people of color want to be treated differently, as they do fairly (or equally), just as women did before them and the founding fathers did before them.

What a really interesting and exciting discussion all the way around. I wish there were some place on the web where discussions like this took place all the time. I know that Cafe Utne has a philosophical debate forum link which is said to be the best. I will check it out and hope to "SEE" some of you there.

Sheba says:
"What you are essentially saying is that as long as people who are different just begin to act normal, then they won't have any problems. At least that's what I hear, you may not have meant this."

Let me clarify. It's not about just acting normal. It's about not being aggresively different. I think the harder people work to maintain, preserve and display the idiosyncrasies of their own different cultures, the longer it will take them to be accepted into the mainstream. In other words, in the long run it's more productive to go with the flow. That's just my opinion based on observations over a long lifetime. Feel free to disagree.
Cantabene

I think more than holding on to your culture, it is whether or not on is able to operate successfully within one's own and the dominant culture. And also, whether or not the dominant culture allows the individual culture to exist and develop alongside its own.

I also think that is what makes a place interesting, all those influences. I loved all the celtic influences in Brittany (in France) but there was a time when France was trying to unify the language, and it was typical to ridicule children in the classroom that were overheard speaking Breton. Literally, they were forced to stand in the corner wearing dunce caps. That, to me, promotes a lot of hostility more than enabling a cultural bilingualism.

Spain is a really good example of that. Looking at the Franco years. I also liked Jen's example of the Gypsy's/ I have studied the Gypsy culture a little bit, within the U.S. ( I actually saw some gypsies at the grocery store in LA a couple of days ago), but not enough to really understand it and its role in Spain. I always suspected that it wasn't as cut and dry and some spaniards saw, essentially, they are where they are, and it is their fault.

I volunteered at an orphanage in Chile (quite truly the most depressing thing I have ever seen. We built a playground for the 3-5 years olds. It was the first time they had ever been outside in their lives!!!), and there were some beautiful babies of Gypsy blood. The tias told me that they would never be adopted. A gysy baby had never been adopted due to the prevailing attitude that they are "bad blood." My favorite was little Daniel, who was so happy and smily, even at two/three months. It made me so unbelievably sad that he was going to waste away in that orphange, simply because of his ethnic background. Needless to say, there were also a lot of CHilean babies that don't get adopted - hard to be a guiling and interactive baby when nobody holds you or plays with you. I have digressed, but I hope you see some of what I am trying to say.

PS - my teary remisces of Spain are not because I see it as a pacific utopia, but the little things about the food, people and culture that I liked and miss.

Sheba-I was kidding about the name thing...by the way,

WHERE THE HECK WERE YOU when you THOUGHT you were in White Bear Lake??? Cowboy hats? Was that White Bear Lake, Colorado? I think I've seen as many Swedish flags in WBL as U.S. Flags (sidenote: ALWAYS flying UNDER the U.S. flag...unlike in SoCal...)

Anyway, thanks for the Minnesota History recap...I thought I was back in Mrs. Krebs' sixth-grade class again...

Anyway, as I mentioned, MN has very little black history, not "no" black history. I'm aware of their contributions...you are right when you say that Scandinavians are the only ones who can put up with the weather...as my dad said once, "the weather keeps out the riff-raff". Little-known fact: Minnesota has (or at least had) the greatest diversity of native American tribes in the U.S. Apparently they can stand the cold too.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion, and I think I'm boring everyone with the historical details...my apologies.

Keep the sensible posts coming!

First of all, as I think I've been mention "between lines" by Nicole about the ETA topic. I didn't say Calibasco supported violence but that he believed some of the justifications ETA gives to murder (and that's totally different from supporting them). I know there're two sides in every coin but sometimes it's not fair to put them in the same level. Here we got several "coins": Hitler-Jews; KKK-Blacks; Osama Bin Laden-US Goverment; Oklahoma Bombers-US Goverment; Yemen and American Embassies in Africa bombers- US government. The first part of the coin can say whatever to justify its acts (and they surely believe in what they're saying and in what they're doing) but even if a few people in the second part of the coin had done something wrong sometime in the past, that would never be comparable.

Now, about blacks in Spain. The fact is that they're very few and most of them have come from Africa (in the recent years) running away from difficult social or political situations in their countries so they don't have good academic qualifications and work in the agriculture or construction fields. there're also blacks coming from Latin American countries (mostly Dominicans and Cubans) that have the advantage of the common language to adapt better but again it's a new situation and people that come to Spain don't usually do it in the best conditions (of money, qualifications, etc). I hope things will be ok in a few years with the first generation of black spaniards.

I don't think you'll have problems in Spain (only some stares but because of curiosity), however stupid people can be anywhere.

Finally, I don't agree with the statement that only white people can be racist. Black, asian, arab or gipsy people can be as racist as white people.

Castiza,

Hello and welcome to this conversation. I appreciate your comments.

By the by, do you or anyone else know of where I can find information on the blacks that are in Spain?

There has to be some information on them besides the novels written by James Baldwin and company.

I know that here in Minnesota, when a new culture's demographics grow, there is always something in the paper regarding these new communities.

If anyone knows, please let me know.

P.S. I hope you don't think I meant to say that only white people are racist. What I said was that only those with power can oppress and using black people as an example because that is what I know best. I hope this isn't baiting anyone to believe I mean one specific group of people because all we need to do is open the paper and see that there are various forms of oppression being committed by various groups in power.

Thanks again Castiza for your opinion.

Hi Sheba,
I came back from Spain yesterday and I saw a lot of people from different countries and races. The main idea that I got is that people is getting used to see more diversity, BUT they are not happy at all. It looks like the crime is a little bit higher and they say that most of the criminals are not Spaniards. I lived in Vallecas, (mainly workers live there) and my family is still there, they feel unsafe somehow because the foreigners get together in big groups and they act like "don't look at me or I'll kill you".
My theory is that Spain has a high rate of unemployment but they are letting in many foreigners. Foreigners cannot access to a job unless is a really bad one, but they have to survive and their families too so they choose another way to get money. Now, Spaniards are upset because companies hire foreigners to work in construction and cleaning because it is a lot cheaper and since they are ilegal they don't have to pay taxes. So nobody is happy. My opinion? I don't know, I am upset because I have an uncle who cannot find a job in Spain (even as a construction man) but many foreigners are working, on the other hand I feel that if in your country you don't have food or a way to take care of your family you should try to go to another country.
Let's see whay happens