WHAT????! No Jen...most Anglos in the US are NOT racist! Do you even realize what kind of accusations you're throwing around? That's why I replied to mclarke the way I did in the first place...because you are trying to apply your definition of something onto me that I am most certainly not. I am not consciously or unconsciously racist and farbeit from you to say that I am. Saying that I don't see color is not "seeing the world through rose colored glasses". If everyone could say that we wouldn't have all these problems. Can't you see that? That is what we WANT people to be like. Change starts on an individual level.

Leche

It owuld have been better for me not to have participated. I am not throwing around accusations. Yes, of course, change starts at home, comes from within, but we must see the world for what it really is-an unfair world. Enough of this. Don't take it personally-I'm talking about society as a whole. Peas on earth. By the way, "seeing color" doesn't indicate racism or being prejudiced-it's seeing people. Salad bowl, baby. That's the beauty of it.-there ain't no melting pot.

[This message has been edited by Jen (edited 11-17-2000).]

ok..I'm not upset. Thanks Jen. I know this is not a debate but a discussion. I agree that we should all be more tolerant of everyone else.

Leche

I have to agree with Jen though. I think it is pretty hard not to be prejudiced and participate in a racist system - whatever the society. I have found that in every country, there is always some group that felt to be inferior by the dominant culture, and whether or not people want to, they have all sorts of ideas in their heads about that group.

A powerful example of that kind of brainwashing for me, was in Chile. I knew two taxi drivers that worked for an American company. The general manager sponsored them a trip to the U.S. to visit the headquarters and the plant, to let them really feel part of the team. Neither had ever been out of CHile, and one, Jorge, had never seen a black person (unfortunately, not very difficult in that particular country). When they came back, the other taxista, Enrique, told me that the whole time they were up there, Jorge was terrified and couldn't wait to get home. Every time he was on a street where there was more than one black person, he became convinced that they were talking to each other on there cell phones and were plotting to steal from them or kill them.

Admittedly, Jorge wasn't too bright, but to me, this was an example of how powerful role of the media is. Here was someone whose only experience with African Americans from the U.S. was through movies, t.v. and news - and look at his stereotypes, and how powerful they were. Frankly, I found it really depressing. Yet, we have all of that in our cultural subconcious too, along with other information and disinformation ( by all kinds of sources).

I think we have been tricked into thinking that opression, in this case racism, is only when people commit overt acts like burning a cross in someone's front lawn. When those events occur, they are seen as "isolated" and not as representing a more extreme version of what exists in a culture as whole. Also, if you add up how much things like that occur during just one year in the U.S., you would be truly shocked.

I think we have made enormous progress in the last thirty years, but there is still a long way to go. I think one of the things that inhibits progress is the fact that opression is such an emotional topic for people. When talking about race, people immediately explode with a denial of there own prejudices and racism as if there has just been a full on frontal attack. It is more productive to acknowledge what our conceptions/misconceptions are, how we got them, and move form there. With that approach we are much more likely to have an ability to deal with these issues in a producive way, as individuals and as a society.

Just my two cents.

I better say something about Spain before MadridMan erases this whole thing.

Que viva espana, ole!! (how's that?)

I'm not going to reply to this forum as I am not as eloquent with the written word as most of you are here.
This is for the L.A. group. If any of you in California get the chance to visit the Simon Weisenthal Center/Museum of Tolerance on Pico Blvd. in Los Angeles, please go! Not only is it a museum about the Holocaust, but it deals, very intensely with this topic-Racism and its history.
It is profound and a real eye opener.

P.S. Thanks you guys for all your insight on this subject.

I know. I keep meaning to go; it is only three or four blocks from my job. soon, soon.

I would prefer not to focus on the labels that Jen and Nicole are stamping us with and look more to the ACTIONS of people. I know that I do not ACT out of prejudice no matter what these 2 call me or incinuate that I do not realize about myself.

Leche

Leche, my goodness, this is not a personal attack on you. I do not recall labeling you anything, because I wasn't talking about YOU.

I am speaking in generalities. I guess if I am talking about anyone, it would be MYSELF and the evolution of my own thoughts and opinions. I do that in an abstract way, because I think in alot of ways, I am a typical American. I am sure there are many Americans I no way represent, and maybe you are one them. Who cares? We aren't really talking about specific individuals anyway.

By taking it that way you are totally proving my point though. Instead of being able to have a productive, analytical discussion on issues of opression, people get defensive and shut down.

I feel that despite my attempts to articulate an expremely valid perspective, you did not "hear" what I was saying and got caught up in a feeling of needing to defend yourself. (although, no one is attacking you).

that is exactly my point. These are emotional topics, and we (Americans) get stuck.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

Nicole- before you go to the Museum of Tolerance, call me. We went about two years ago, and I will never go back. If I ever make it to the LA dinner group, we can talk about why, since the written word won't do my opinion justice.

A much more lasting impression, at least on my soul, was left after visiting the Dachau labor camp in Germany. I went in interested in the historian's perspective. I left wondering where my soul and spirit had went. There was a black chasm left after viewing the reality of it all.

I may not be like "most U.S. anglos" but I don't approve of opinions based on hate.

BTW-Leche, I understand where you're coming from. Many times I notice that "white" America seems to be apologizing all the time for things we didn't do. I never owned a slave, never stole land from a native American, etc., but still feel like I need to always apologize.

Continually picking a scab will never allow it to heal...

Oh yeah, as Nicole said, so MM won't kick us off: un poco de español:
-¿no podemos simplemente llevarnos bien?

Oh, and yes, I totally agree with you that ACTIONS, are absolutely the most important part of all of this. What you do, and how your treat other people is essential to having a harmonious society. Treating everyone with dignity as humans is crucial.

I thought we were all gettin along, just debating. I REEEEEEEEEEALLY!!!!! do not mean what I say to offend anyone. I don't think anyone needs to apologize for anything - but I think it is good to look at our own history and present, even outside of our own personal experiences, to understand our own country.

Anyway, I love all of ya. I like the heated debates and the teary reminiscing of Spain. '

That is another thing I loved about being there. I got to know and befriend awesome Americans that I proably never would have otherwise, and I feel that way about this board too. Even if it is all cyber-friends .


[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]