Can someone give me an honest opinion about what Americans think about Spaniards? I know that you like us (the people who participate in MadridMan's web page) but I would like to have a general idea about this. The reason why I ask is because I have heard a lot of things about Spaniards in the States (well, actually only in Jersey, that is the only part of USA that I know) that are wrong (not good or bad, just wrong) and I wonder if it is because we are not a wellknown country or there is other reason.

Hi Nuria,

My sister has the same name

Regarding your question, I was working at a Summer Camp in New Jersey years ago. I had the opportunity to meet hundreds of families, kids, staff, etc.

When they asked me where I was from, I found out that basically there were two possibilities:

a) They did not know were Spain was (many people). Many had a vague idea that it had to be some country somewhere in Latin America or Mexico.

b) They knew it was in Europe, and they regarded you as "European", putting you in teh same basket than the rest (French, German, etc). Before knowing where I was from, identifying my accent as European, they asked if I was French, German, even British!

There were 2 other europeans at the camp, one Dutch, and one British, they treated us all well, I did not notice any difference

That was my first experience, afterwards I returned to the States many times, to study, visit, etc, and my first perception has not changed.

A different matter is if you are Hispanic. Only in the US they have asked me to fill information about " my race" , and they have always filled Caucasian.

At the camp there were people from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, etc. I had a very good relation with them, as I had it with the rest of the people. I treated everybody in the same way. But I could see very that Hispanic peoiple did not get the same treatment, and advantages, that I was getting.

Florencio

Nuria-
Since it's been a while since you posted your question, I don't know if you'll see this. I really don't think that many Americans have any opinion about Spaniards. As you've discovered, i'm sure, anything"Spanish" is just bunched together to refer to either (mostly) things Mexican or perhaps Puerto Rican. On the East Coast, since I believe most of the Spanish speaking people are from PR, Dominican Republic, etc..when people refer to someone as being "Spanish" they usually mean Puerto Rican, etc. Overall, in the US, when people say Spanish, they mean Spanish speaking, and not the nationality. Also, unfortunately, geography is not the strongest area of expertise, so you will find much ignorance there, as I'm sure you have.
-Jen

Nuria -
most americans have no idea what spaniards are and where they come from.

spanish is either a language or a person from somewhere south of the united states. spanish food is spicy and "they" eat lots of tacos. little do they know that spaniards don't EAT tacos, they SPEAK them!(or wear them on the bottoms of their track or futbol boots)

people that do know about spain have practically nothing bad to say about it, minus the bad things they might hear about terrorism, or the occasional tourist suffering from pickpockets.

americans don't have to know or understand any other cultures. americans have it all right here in a very large country, so they don't need any other languages or need to travel outside of their own country. in the nightly news there is barely enough time to cover just what happens in california, let alone national or international news.

i think it is probably a small percentage of americans that have that "international" savoir faire, or desire, and so are the purposeful liasons for americans around the world... most americans don't travel even outside of their own states very often... i am very surprised at the number of people i have met in LA that have NEVER BEEN OUTSIDE OF CALIFORNIA. oh my gosh! that would drive me crazy! but then again, i grew up in an "international" family... i think this is good.



[This message has been edited by real_megia (edited 08-24-2000).]

"That was a good post, real_megia"! hehee..

Here's what I believe "Americans" think/know of Spaniards: They love bullfights, flamenco, paella, and they sleep a lot. If I had to narrow down what most "Americans" think/know about Spaniards I'd say these were the top things.

As real_megia says, few "Americans" (I always try to type this word in parenthesis becauase the word really means all persons on the American Continent all the way down to the Tierra del Fuego and all the way up to... umm... the northernmost tip of Alaska<??>. Question: Is Iceland part of North America?? Don't answer that -- it's off-topic) travel outside of their own countries because we have SO LITTLE #$%@! time off each year so we really don't know any more about Spain (in general) that what we learn in elementary school about Christopher Columbus and a little about the Spanish Inquisition. I'm not sure if they have a better, more rounded education about Spain in schools now or not. I guess "not".

Saludos, MadridMan

pure hilarity, MadridMan!!

i think what you read above was a frustration i have with "american"(i'll follow suit!) culture. y'know, roman culture was the same in this respect... a big fat empire that only had to be concerned with itself, half of its citizens barely considering themselves "roman."

i love the united states. i love arizona and indiana. california is beautiful, but has a strange dynamic. i love my memories here, but i don't know if i am truly an "american." maybe this is the essence of being "american??"

ps> yeah, MM, too little #(*@!$&# time off from work, and certainly no PUENTE in the USA! ok, let's not let this turn into an "america" bashing, real_megia!! just having some fun here!!

I don't think it's just "Americans" who think of spaniards that way.
I remember when I was single and still living in Spain. We were vacationing in south Spain, and my friends and I met this french guys. It was a weekday, and we were at the beach, so everybody was wearing bathing suits. The problem came on sunday, when we met with them for some tapas, dressed in regular clothes. They were shocked that we weren't wearing our "trajes de faralaes" (flamenco costumes).
They thought spaniards used regular clothes during the week, for practical reasons, but wore their flamenco costumes on sundays. Go figure.

Okay, I get the point.
Some people here have asked me in what part of South America is Spain? If we speak portuguese? If we have microwaves... and I thought that maybe "Americans" should know about Spain because Cristobal Colon (Okay, he was Italian, but he used Spanish money). But I guess it is the same way than is spain where most of the people think American have guns (all of them, specially children), people get killed on the streets everyday, "American" love to go to wars to show their weapons and kill everything that moves... These things happen because we don't know what we are talking about. I just had a conversation with a spanish friend who said bad things about America, and even if I tried to explain him that things are not the way that we think in Spain he didn't want to agree. The best part is that he never have been to America, how the **** can he know if he never been here?
Anyway same thing happens in all countries all aroung the world. Actually I have a funny story about that. When my father was a kid they said that russians were red, with horns and a long tail and they ate children, the funny part is that it wasn't a story to scare children, most of my family (that never left the pueblo) really believed the story. By that tiem they didn't have TV and forget about long trips so they never saw a russian so they believed the story.
Nuria
P.S. If there is any russian there please don't feel offended, those were times when people didn't go to school or wathed TV. They even thought chinesse were yellow and with big teeth. Chinesse people don't feel offended either. I better go or I will have to apologize to all the world.

You should have seen the look on the hardware man's face when I went in there seeking "tacos" He had no idea what I wanted. Apparently in this country they are called "anchors"
Who knew???? I grew up in Spain!!!

Hi Rubia66! Where is "this country"? Where do you live? I just looked up the word "taco" in my Spanish-English dictionary and I don't see the reference to what real_megia said "little do they know that spaniards don't EAT tacos, they SPEAK them!(or wear them on the bottoms of their track or futbol boots)" . It said: Taco: a wad, plug, billiard-cue, pad, bung (??).

Saludos, MadridMan

Hi MM. Taco means stud. So it looks like Rubia666 was out looking for studs!
Interesting.

While I did spend more than my fair share of time out seeking studs, and there were plenty to enjoy. After all, I am rubia, add to this tall, and blue eyed, (talk about the stare thread! There isn't too much of that to be seen) Anyway, I usually had a companion before leaving home, but hey, the scenery was terrific anyway!
Having said all this, what I meant was a litte plastic piece that you put into the wall before you place the large screw in the wall, mostly for heavy objects.
Hmmmm, never thought of stud hunting at the hardware store......

Forgot to mention...
Now I live in Missouri. I moved to Spain when I was 8 and left when I was 23.
Holding up my "Madrid or bust" sign!

Madridman,

When real_megia said "little do they know that spaniards don't EAT tacos, they SPEAK them!" the meaning of "taco" was swear word.

Do you understand the joke now?

Saludos,

Antonio

Yup! Thanks for the explanation, buddy!

Nuria:
There aren't really that many Spanish people who have immigrated to the U.S. (not like Irish or Italians or Mexicans or Vietnamese or the new wave of Russians).

There are a lot of Puerto Ricans and Cubans (Cuba belonged to Spain until 1898) who call themselves 'Spanish' in New Jersey. So most NorteAmericanos have no idea of differences between these people and European Spanish.

I taught a course in Spanish to 13 & 14 year old children in my Parish school. Most had no idea where Spain was. But I enlightened them! I insisted on adhering to castellano
pronunciation and including the 2nd person plural (donde vais vosotros) which the text had just about omitted.

How do we perceive the Spanish? The answer to your question is probably that we don't know any people from Spain, just Dominicans and Cubans and Puertoricans and Colombians, etc., etc.

Augh, Eddie, why did you have to teach 'vosotros'?? We Latins never, ever use it. It's not even used in parts of Spain!

[This message has been edited by Wendy E (edited 08-26-2000).]

Uh-Oh. Is this going to turn into a "Proper" Spanish thread? What parts of Spain don't use vosotros??

'Vosotros' isn't used in Sevilla nor, I think, is it used in the Canary Islands. Since most of the sailors and conquistadores during colonialism came from those two areas, the 'vosotros' form was not imported to Latin America. There is not a single Latin country that uses that form.

Some countries, most notably Argentina and El Salvador, and some parts of Nicaragua, still use 'vos' instead of 'tu', which is a throwback to Latin, but is in no way plural.

It's not about what's the 'proper' way of speaking Spanish, but I think teaching 'vosotros' to Americans is like teaching ESL kids to spell 'color' and 'humor' with a 'u'.
I'd like to hear other opinions on this.



[This message has been edited by Wendy E (edited 08-26-2000).]

Wendy,

Whether or not Spansh speakers otside of Castilla use vosotros congagations is not the issue. Nearly all of the educated Spanish speaker outside of Spain understand the vosotros form even if they do not use it. The majority of Bibles used in Latin America are printed with the vosotros usage, just as the King James Bible is ubequiteous in the English speaking world.

Foreign students of Spanish should be instructed in the use of vosotros, so that they may understand the rich Iberian literature that includes - Cervantes, Lope de Vega, Lorca, etc. Students in the United States should understand typically British usage as well- fortnight, colour, flavour, etc.. American students should be exposed to a greater range of knowledge, not a more limitted one.

As for the vos usage in Central America and the cone countries of South America, I think learning it would serve students well also. The proper Spanish is the one that the educated people of a country speak. Cockney or Eubonics dose not represent standardized English, anymore than the "Pocho" Spanish that is so common in the United States represents the language of the Real Academia. We must be vigiliant in our defense of the rich Spanish language from Anglosicims and ingnorance.




[This message has been edited by Shawn (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Shawn (edited 08-26-2000).]

Your friendly university Spanish professor here. It is vital to teach vosotros. First, it is the second person plural, and to leave it OFF a conjugation is... to leave it off! MUCH harder to learn later in life. I know this from experience: my first year in a SP. speaking country was in Guatemala, where there is vos but no vosostros. When i went to Spain, I was calling everyone Uds., and it took me years to feel comfortable with the vosotros form. I ALWAYS make my students learn it, and tell them, if you go to Spain without it, you won't know how to address two friends at once! you can always un-learn it if you are in Mexico, etc. Correct about the Canary Islands. But Andalucia does use the vosotros, at least in standard usage. Asi que, teneis que aguantar si quereis que MadridMan os suba al rango de iberofilo!

Vosotros is used in the Canary islands as well. It's used mainly on the island of Tenerife but there are also many that use it on Gran Canaria.

Yes, I feel I was gypped(yes, i know this is a derogotory term against the gypsies and that MM likes to put "Americans" in quotes, and all that-why do we have to be so PC!? Anyway, back to the point-) b/c in jr. high and high school and most of college, I was not taught the vosotros and it was not til I went to Sevilla, that I had to learn the vosotros, and fast! Like rgf says, it's more difficult to learn it later. I definately incorporate the vosotros into my teaching.

I am reading some conflicting opinions here: Wendy E writes that the second person plural is not used in Sevilla; but then Jen writes that he/she had to learn it on arriving in Sevilla. I can assure you that it is used in Castilla la Vieja, Aragon, Principality of Asturias and Cantabria and the Comunidad de Madrid (where the Academia del Idioma is domiciled). Just about all Spanish speaking countries are members of that academy and subscribe to its rules concerning Castilian syntax and usage (I write Castilian because there are at least 3-additional officially sanctioned languages that are also Spanish: Catalan, Euskera and Galego).

I certainly didn't expect to open up such a controversy: the second person plural is a part of the language - teaching or learning Castilian without that makes that teaching or learning flawed. This is all a matter of opinion, of course: IMHO a 'Credential' to teach 'Spanish' is incomplete and suspect if it doesn't include the second person plural, and when and how it is employed. You don't have to use it (if, for example, you only go to Mexico) - but you should have to be able to use it if the situation and locale make it appropriate.

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 08-28-2000).]

hola, muy buenos dias...

wow did this thread expand or what/??!!

MM, yeah, a "taco" is a swear word, y se aprende los tacos y la jerga durante la juerga. (a party-going saying meaning that one learns the bad words and the slang during the debauchery/party). also, the "tacos" on my futbol boots were loose and breaking off, so i got new pair ( a true story, in 3D.)

i taught spanish in northern arizona at yavapai college (in sedona) and i was alarmed and annoyed that the vosotros form was not even covered in the textbook! i taught it anyway.

whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the vosotros is essential to learn for the truism that MOST of the great spanish literature employs it, not to mention that so does every other LATIN based language, of course, in its own form. so if you learn and understand the vosotros in castellano, you will understand its importance in latin, italian, french, catalan, et cetera... ancient greek even had its own form of 2person plural (and latin borrowed greek's structure and declension model).

it is true those of you who want to fall back on that excuse "but they don't use it in south america or central america so i don't have to learn it" routine are wrong and purposeful in your ignorance. why go out of your way not to learn something that is free and is cool for a misguided feeling of rebeliousness? learn PART over WHOLE? this i do not understand. learn vosotros, it is good for you. (eat your spinach, it is good for you.)

pax.

We have the "Real Academia de la Lengua Española" and they accept the different use of Spanish in Latin America. Anyway, we have to understand that Spanish has many dialects. In spain we usually speak Castellano, but we have Catalan, euskera, Gallego... If they don't use the vosotros in Latin America that's okay. I understand that in USA they teach spanish not Castillian so they follow the rules of the Spanish that they know (mexican, cuban...) but my children will speak Castillian that I think is a more proper Spanish (wich doesn't mean that other spanish is not proper)

Yes, the vosotros is used in Sevilla. Don't deny your students the right to choose for themselves!! Teach the vosotros! If need be, learn it along with them. You'll be glad you did.

Yikes!! This thread is getting too hot! Guess I'll go back to hunting for studs at the hardware store! Vosotros quiere venir?
He, he, he!!!
By the way, I never heard a Spaniard refer to anyone as a taco.

I guess I have a different perpective as an Hispanic American. I know and understand the 'vosotros' form without having learned it in school, just like I know what 'loo' and 'lift' mean without having learned those either. However, just as I would say 'elevator' and 'bathroom', I would still use 'Uds.' I'd feel incredibly pretensious speaking otherwise, nor would the people to whom I was speaking expect otherwise from me. I mean, as soon as I open my mouth, my national origin is immediately revealed.

But I must say I'm dismayed by reading in responses words like 'ignorance' 'purity' and 'proper'. I think Nuria described it best - Castillian is proper for her, whereas it may not be for someone else. Remember, language is evolving and changing everyday, trying to retain its original form is a losing battle - just read about the problems the government of Iceland has with this!

Wendy E,

please do not see my use of the word "ignorance" as an insult. apparrantly you already know how to use vosotros. i am speaking to those that do not and choose not to learn it because of a pride issue.

ignorance is only bad if you seeing it that way. i am ignorant about a lot of things in this world, not scared to admit it. please do not see that i am saying "stupid" instead of "ignorant." i am not.

i do not see the use of vosotros as a losing battle. it has a meaning and it is different than Uds., and that is because i grew up knowing it and have connotations with it. there are (dare i say) millions of people who feel this way about "vosotros."

paz.

It is true that a lot of high school teachers tell their students, we are learning Latin American Spanish and that is why we don't learn the vosotros. I myself always teach it (and use it because it comes naturally NOW), and respect students who don't USE it. But learn it? Yup. It is part of the language. I don't teach Mexicanisms, either. I say coche and tell them carro is OK in Mexico and auto in Argentina... a SPANISH teacher should know lots of variantes del espanyol and give students the choice/tools they need to speak the lang! Tools for those taco-studs, eh!

Sorry about the fork thing, no harm was intended.

Vosotros is used everywhere in Spain as far as I ever noticed, certainly in Andalucia - what is becoming much less frequent (in conversation) is usted/ustedes (though I've heard grown adults use it speaking to their parents in some places). So in Lat. Am. they use ustedes for 2nd pers. plu. ? Or what?

I agree with all the postings that favor the inclusion of vosotros in the teaching of Spanish- the tendency in Spain seems in fact to be to use both Usted and Uds. less and less and to extend the usage of tu and vosotros (or, as an intermediate level, to use the third person, but without Ud. and Uds., like asking someone: ¿quiere que le traiga algo?) I think to learn a foreign language and culture properly, you have to develop a sensitivity for the connotations of the different forms of addressing people. While it is obviously rude to address someone you are supposed to address with "Usted" with "tu" instead, it will also sound weired if you treat people too formally and put you unnecessarily at a distance. Of course, it is difficult to understand which one is adequate in which situation, even more so for a native speaker of English because you do not have a similar differentiation. But if you were never taught about the different variations, it is probably much more difficult.
The matter is different for other native speakers of Spanish-what may sound naturally if said to a Spaniard by a Mexican might sound weired if said by someone with another mother tongue, especially if the concerned person does not master the respective version of Spanish perfectly. This is true for Latin American countries as well (my Argentinian friends always laugh at me for saying "vale"- which seems so normal for me!) Therefore one should always strive for learning about the variations in usage.
The same is valid for English- I always tried as much as possible to be aware of differences in British and American usage and use the word adequate for the respective context, in the awareness that I probably will never master either one perfectly and that I'd do better trying to adapt to the context.

Can't we all just get along? Maybe we could get some closure on this thread? I'll see what I can do. Here ya go:
Re: Vosotros.
1. Some use it
2.Some don't
3.Use it if you want to
4.But you don't have to.

Alli lo TENEIS. Que TENGAN buen dia. Hasta luego.

Getting along is one thing; which we do just fine. It's topics such as these that make this message board particularly interesante.
Don't you think?

I thought you might all be interested in this:
According to SIL International www.sil.org ,
in 1996 there were 332,000,000 native speakers of Spanish in the world. 40,000,000 people live in Spain. Assuming that all are native speakers of Spanish and all use the vosotros form, that means 8% (a very liberal figure) of Spanish speakers use the vosotros form.

What I interpret Wendy E to be saying is that the second person plural is ONLY used by Spanish speakers in Spain. NOT!! I seem to remember Fidel Castro using it in his very long speeches. And Pope John Paul II used it as he addressed the throngs on his '99 visit to Cuba.
Perhaps the use of the correct Castilian (including the second person plural) depends on how far (temporally) a population is from the Madre Patria. Such as: I am personally acquainted with first generation Cubans who were sent back to Spain by their parents to study there.

Wendy E,
That 8% that use "vosotros" are from España, where Español comes from. The rest of the spanish speaking countries adopted our language and adapted our language in the way the wanted. If you are trying to say that because only the 8% uses vosotros is less valid I don't agree with you.
Language is a tool that we use to communicate and as long as I can communicate with the rest of the people I don't care if they/I use the proper English, Spanish or Chinese.

nice reply, Nuria.

not using vosotros is NOT to say that you are wrong. when in "rome" you will use the best possible method to communicate. but there will continue to be a population that learn vosotros and will use it in their daily speech. if the populations that do not use vosotros become more influencial, perhaps they will cause the vosotros using population to stop using it ( as an evolutionary theory on language ).

but Wendy E, your argument is not a reason to stop teaching vosotros.

my father lived in havana from about age 8 to about 19, and he learned and used vosotros, even tho he has said that much of cuba does not use it, there is a population there that does. you can hear fidel castro using it in his old speeches, i don't know about now... probably does...

I think the issue is not about right or wrong, but on which words are the most appropriate in a given context, and this varies from country to country. To use a more drastic example, you can have the same word being absolutely acceptable standard Spanish and sounding vulgar and unacceptable in certain Latin American countries and the other way round.
In Spain, Ustedes does exist, but with a more limited scope, so it will sound different to a Spaniard than to a Mexican and it will fit better in that country to use vosotros as well.
Uds./vosotros is thus to be distinguished from examples like "lift" and "elevator", which are just different words without carrying different connotations.
And even if Spaniards just are 8 % of the Spanish speaking world, I do not see why they would give up vosotros soon to adapt to Latin America, since the usage in Spain is still quite uniform- British English retains its own existence vis-a-vis American English, too.

Actually, by posting statistics I was going to say (but didn't) that I guess it IS a good thing that the Spanish teachers are teaching it.

Yesterday, 18 Sep, I happened to be seated next to a Maestra from Guadalajara, Jalisco (Mexico) on a flight from Madrid to Newark. I told her I taught the 2nd person plural to my students in Philadelphia even though it was not included in the text. She said that in Mexican primary schools she doesn't teach the 'vosotros' tense. How about that?

Um, duh. We don't teach British usage/orthography in the U.S., either. The point on vosotros is this: when teaching Spanish in the U.S., we professors/teachers have an obligation to expose our students to the main varients of Spanish in the world. Not all the details, but the main features. That's why we include VOSOTROS and why we also point out lexical variations such as coche/carro/auto.

he he he... rgf you crack me up...

i agree with rgf, eddie. why should a primary edu teacher in Jalisco, Mejico teach vosotros? they don't use vosotros there. it doesn't meant that those children will never be taught it, or shouldn't learn it...

it is as important as reading. just because you can talk, converse, and listen does not mean that you can read. reading allows you to basically have conversations with yourself via someone else's thoughts that were written. imagine extracting worldly ideas from ink written in shapes on a piece of chopped up tree. vosotros is the same (a little diff! ), it expands your comprehension of something that you previously did not understand (were ignorant of). what is wrong with learning something new that expands your comprehension? what's more, it is something that you can USE.

learn it if you want. don't learn it if you don't want. but understand that it is REAL and by not learning it you limit your own understanding.

What do Americans think about Spaniards?
It's my impression that Americans rarely think of Spaniards.
Cantabene

That's right. Although I often think of Spain and my wonderful Spanish friends, the vast majority do not. It's sad to say that a lot of people(ignorant) even think Spain is somewhere in Central or South America! Vaya la gente...

I agree...Americans really don't think of Spaniards at all. The real questions is what do Spaniards think of Americans? My experience is that they will often berate and talk down anything American....there is just a general feeling of dislike. In a way it often times comes across as jealousy. Example: Spaniards will buy any american products they can. How many times have you seen kids wearing a t shirt that say something like "Eskimo Sport Products" that you know they paid 4000 ptas for! Just some bogus English words on a shirt. Not to mention Bart Simpson everything....

Leche

I never got the impression that Spaniards had any disdain for "americans." I think they have as many misconceptions of "americans" as some "americans" have of them. I certainly got that when I told Spaniards I was from Texas. They automatically thought I lived on a ranch, had lots of vacas and oil!
I only asked one Spaniard (from Galicea) what Spaniards thought of "americans." He replied that Spaniards are a very open, loving people that did not have a bad opinion of us. Obviously a survey of one has little statistical significance, but my experience bears this out.

I have never felt disdain or anything even similar from anyone in Spain. My passport was issued in Hawaii and that usually generates a terrific response when people see it - No, I am not of Polynesian ancestry, so the Hawaiian aspect isn't a visible thing. But have traded rudimentery hula lessons for the same in flaminco in some rather odd places - hostales, of course, but stores as well. It actually has proved to be a great way to meet people - there are always onlookers. I have always found the Spaniards to be open and gracious without being effusive. Perhaps their perception of us is in how we behave individually - as it should be.

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 10-05-2000).]

You're proving my point. You don't get that feeling from everyone but you can still feel it all over Europe. There is an underlying feeling that Americans are pompous, overinflated, rude jerks. Look at the movies we export to them! Everything about our "culture" just expresses that we are the biggest and baddest, ect. Did you see the opening ceremonies at the Olympics? Please, spare me! With the over zealous patrioticness of some of our countrymen many many europeans (and yes Spaniards are included here) just look at us as a whole and think...."oh, geez, please." What I'm saying is that this "reputation" is rightly deserved because there are so many stupid Americans roaming the world thinking they own everything and stomping on anything that's different. Have you ever been to Torrejon de Ardoz? It's a satellite suberb on the outskirts of Madrid. There was a US Air Force base there for many years. I lived in this city and believe me when I say that many Spaniards cringed at the audacity of some of these military folks. My opinion here is that many many of these military guys had no respect for the country they lived in and just thought they could go about having sex with anything that moved and tearing up the place with their camaros. I know none of us are like this and that most of us Americans are kind and gentle people but you have to recognize that this is what the Spaniards see of our culture. That visible Go USA! attitude is always in their face and it spoils it for the good people. My .02$

Leche

[This message has been edited by Leche (edited 10-05-2000).]

Okay, here is a neutral viewpoint from a Canadian who spent 6 years living in the US. Most average Americans (in the Pittsburgh area anyway) don't know a heck of a lot about Spain. Hell, most average Americans don't know squat about Canada except that the huntin' and fishin' are good, and we're right next to them!

My girlfriend while in Pittsburgh was from Madrid, and constantly got the "You must love tacos, do you speak Mexican?" treatment. Blame a poor, inward looking educational system and little interest in the outside world (again, I can only speak for the Pittsburgh area).

However, I met some cool yankees from big cities that had been to Spain and were extremely open minded.

So my theory is: big city america=openminded, small town middle america=closedminded.

Now, it seems that MadridMan is from Ohio, which is about as middle america as you can get, so there goes my theory down the toilet. Or maybe there are just exceptions to the rule!!

i suppose that, in defence of the american "ideal," america was founded on an expand-and-conquer principle made up of many other european cultures. was it mainly british islanders?

i think a lot of italians, dutch, germans, french, and eastern europeans came too... america has always focused on becoming the best and having its way because of the intense scrutiny it faced in the early years... america was made up of "individuals" searching for the freedom of choice (in religeon as well as other things...) and then look at all the space these europeans (and asians and africans) found when they got here... enough for everyone to have their own space without intrusion from others.

these truisms had to take their toll on american culture too. americans fight with each other bitterly about many heart felt topics... and of course americans think they are right, america made a habit of always searching for "right." this is certainly not to say that america is always right, tho. right?

we all have to pave the way for the ugly ones, and i would still defend america for what it is... ugly can also be a subjective opinion.

When I mentioned the reaction to a passport issued in/from Hawaii - what I intended to get across was that people (in the US as well by the way) are fascinated - and sometimes uneducated - by and about Hawaii. Even in Boston, Chicago, and NY - I have been told I speak excellent English - especially as it had to have been a second language!!!

Years ago there was a general attitude of the "Ugly American" - mostly based on economics - the have/have nots. That role was transfered to the Japanese when their economy became a powerhouse. There was a
"Ugly Japanese" attitude - in the US as well as overseas. A lot of the stereotyping of nationalities is based on economics. Yeah, I do agree that some of the military kids can get out of hand - but so can non-military kids. And so can non-kids.

I have to disagree with your comment about all Spaniards feel disdain and/or disgust for Americans as a group - I am sure they feel disgust and disdain for poorly behaved VISITORS and for those who do not respect, at least on the surface, the traditions and sensabilities of the country they are in

No one said ALL SPANIARDS....just quite a few. It all depends. I think alot of it is the "have's and have not's" situation. The point is that the "poorly behaved VISITORS" are the most visible ones that they see.

Leche

HI, I agree with the points that Puna made. I grew up in Hawaii and when I came to California, I was asked if I lived in a grass hut! Every place has its own stereotypes. When I lived in Spain I would say I was from the U.S., the response was "Oh, that's nice", but then I would get more specific and say I was from California, this seemed to get a more positive reaction, often leading to interesting discussions. I don't know why, but to many, even "Americans", California is different.
My husband, a madrileño, while watching the Olympics, made comments about the way the U.S. team portrayed themselves and especially how egocentric the network broadcasting was. I mean, they barely showed the winning teams or events that other countries won. This is how "Americans" portray ourselves to the world, so it is easy to see where the stereotypes come from.
As far as what "Americans" think of Spaniards. Even some of our friends think my husband is from "south of the border". I find it my personal goal and duty to inform as many as I can about the richeness of Spain and all it has to offer!

The vosotros form is most definitely used in Sevilla. My professors in Sevilla constantly said "¿Habéis leído?" or "¿Habéis estudiado?".

My Spanish friends used vosotros, and I heard it on TV, radio, in my host family's house etc etc.