Oso, thank goodness! I hope I was not misunderstood.

You are so right about the problems in education.
Going back to the problem of language. I believe that because the Latino population is so big and widespread that Dr. Stavans is right and Spanglish will become a common language in the U.S., and I suspect only in the U.S. I see it everywhere. I recently received a free CD from AOL in the mail and it was in Spanglish. These people recognize that a linguistic change has occured among the Latino peoples in the U.S.A. and are marketing themselves to that community.

Booklady, it seems to me that the language the student was using involved code switching, not Spanglish. The Spanish words used were really Spanish words, conjugated correctly and all, right? And the English words were really English words, used as they would be used if the entire sentence had been in English. This suggests that both languages have been internalized enough to enable the speaker to maintain correct grammar and syntax while switching language "code." This is not what I understand by Spanglish at all. Had they said something like "chequearon" for checked, or "eatieron" for ate, or "undresieron" for undressed, THAT would be Spanglish because the English word and the Spanish word are merged into one word that had not existed as such in either language before. Some of these are used so commonly now (as I think I've said before) that they are considered standard usage in border areas. Normally when a word is added to a language, very little is done to it to adapt it. Khaki, menage a trois, coup d'etat, rodeo, blitzkreig, etc. maintain their original spelling and always seem "foreign." In Spanglish, the word is not used in its original form, and the speakers (generally border folk who hear both languages all the time and are usually not well trained in either) gradually assume that the word they have coined is understood by every Spanish speaker as a Spanish word. A few years ago we went to Spain with a group of kids from Texas who were very fluent in Spanglish...and it about drove our tour guide nuts! Since she spoke both languages, she could eventually understand what they were trying to say, but comprehension of Spanglish requires some knowledge of both languages. Am I making any sense here?

The incorporation of foreign vocabulary has always been a part of language. And perhaps what the Spanish we speak now is the Spanglish of centuries ago when the Latin that was left by the Romans merged with whatever the rest of the Iberian peninsula was speaking to become Spanish. SOMETHING happened, because while Portuguese, French, Spanish and Italian are similar, they are not the same. The danger with Spanglish is that with the shrinking of the world due to speed of travel, internet, etc., we want to be MORE able to communicate with each other, not less. The Spanglish I am referring to limits those who speak it in that they are not able to communicate with the rest of the Spanish speaking world.

As for the historical part of that paper...well, that's a entirely different issue!!!!! I taught a group of Mexican students 7th grade geography. It took 4 TESTS for them to be able to correctly identify the US, Mexico, Canada, the Atlantic and the Pacific on a map of North America! No joke, folks! It's unbelievable.

No Meastra, it's all too believable. The average American's grasp of geography is utterly atrocious (as my English spelling has become). People laugh and muse about it, but it's truly sad I believe, and shows an overall disregard for anything taking place outside of one's own back yard. I presume this is human nature - out of sight, out of mind, but I don't see it getting any better for America's youth.

I have internally debated becoming a high school Spanish teacher myself, but every teacher I've ever spoken with in California WITHOUT exception has told me: Don't do it! A teacher of 30 years told me verbatum that the kids are nearly illiterate and, I quote here, "f*****g idiots".

Many of you may find this harsh, but so far this does not encourage me to dedicate such time and money to an under-paid, under-appreciated profession that in 5-7 years many people leave anyway.

This topic is for another thread on another board however.

Rocinante, I am about to start my 35th school year. Yes, it is an uphill battle against the wind, but teaching has tremendous rewards. Years ago, back in Catholic grade school, nuns used to talk about vocations and callings. Teaching must be that. If you go into it for money or job security, you won't last.
But yes, we probably should be putting this on the teachers' forum!

Oh my poor Maiestra! I feel for you because you truely wish these kids could get it through their heads what you're trying to convey and teach. But I must say that it is not just only in the Latino community. We live in a very affluent area of Orange County (we're the po' folks of the neighborhood )and the high school that my son attends is one of the best in OC, but my son tells me that many of the kids don't even bother with school work. He said they don't turn assignments in, don't care, and are more interested in thir social lives. These kids have it made. Hell, their cars are better than mine! And I listen to these kids talking to each other and it's sad. But, just remember that the majority of kids do learn and want to learn and those are the ones that teachers should focus on. Not that bad students don't require help, but let's face it, teachers are very stressed and stretched sometimes beyond what's required of them to do.

Changes in language is inevitable, as is occured in the Roman empire. I was bemoaning the fact that the veseo is pretty much gone in Spain, which I love to listen to and read. Fortunately for me I still have my Tunos that still use it and I can get my fix!

Rocinante, that was a bit harsh and it's just as well that you do not enter into the world of teaching. As for f*****g idiots; Presidents and others of high stature and profession can qualify as FI's.
Those who CAN,teach.

To me, how one puts across their ideas no matter how, is important to me.
Do we stop talking to old folk from the country who perhaps left school at a very early age or have never been to school just because they may not speak 'properly'?
I just love talking and listening to colloquial uses of language, dialects, accents, etc etc.

Eloquency of communication is what is important.
Shaw's 'Pygmalion' comes to my mind here.

Higgins, professor of phonetics, is horrified to say the least over Liza's, (a common street flower girl), use of English. So much so that he finds her amazingly curious and agrees to teach her proper English usage as a bet to his friend to pass her of as a grand Duchess at a ball. In the end Liza wins Higgins' respect and adoration. But it is his aquaintance with her father, Alfred Doolittle, a common cockney dust man, who bowls and charms him over with his 'common' and vulgar but creative use of English. Great play.
Pygmalion
.......
Salma Hayek's response to;
"Who speaks Spanish that you are really desperate to talk to? The help? YOur leaf Blower?"

was,

"...If I were you, I would start talking to the help and the leaf blowers; it seems to me they have a lot to teach you."

And I couldn't agree more.

One last thing. In a small town in the South of Italy, where my husband is from, dialect is used widely with the exception of the 'young ones'. While my Italian is limited to a very basic survival level, how is it that I am able to speak to the old folk who speak with unrecognisable Italian?
and they in turn talk and wish converse with me?
They speak with passion and energy and take great care in conveying what is said to others and in such a great colorful and eloquent way.
Gesticulation being a great help , there is a universal understanding, I can't quite put my finger on it, but if one is open, respectful and interested, the rewards are bountiful.

Anyway, thanks for humouring me.

"As for f*****g idiots; Presidents and others of high stature and professions can qualify as FI's."

This is all well and true, but they sure get paid a whole hell of a lot better than teachers do, and many times for less stress.

Your points about the richness of coloquialism are understood. I too love this aspect of language. It is grossly naive to think however that leaf-blowers will become anything other than leaf-blowers (except maybe some one in charge of leaf blowers at best) if they refuse to recognize that register of language is crucial to upward mobility. The way one speaks influences where one goes in life, most of the time. Yes, you may use the current President as an example to the contrary, but in these examples, when you come from so much money, it doesn't matter as much.

I frequently come in contact with 'latinos' in the L.A. area and try to converse with them (I'm not talking about hispanics born outside the U.S who do speak fluently). I inevitably find that they really don't have a grasp of the Spanish language, just a limited working vocabulary/phrasology that they use amongst themselves, like 'odale huey', 'andale pues','Qué ondaaaaaaaa', and an array of explative having to do with 'madre'. When I try to engage in any kind of reasonable diologue, they immediately return to English (which they don't particulary speak all that well either), partly I think because they know I'm a non 'latino' and also because I honestly don't think they understand what I'm saying. Somehow I don't see these individuals advancing real far in the social latter. At least no one I know would hire them.

My point to all of this is these speech patterns are not curtailed during the education process, they are coming out of school already at a huge disadvantage.

hey everybody

that speech sounds more like mexican than latino.
in california latinos are mostly mexican.up hear in nyc we have a more variey of latinos,and more spaniards as well.

"that speech sounds more like mexican than latino.
in california latinos are mostly mexican.up hear in nyc we have a more variey of latinos,and more spaniards as well."

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fmiketheman

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Fmiketheman...My Man...when was the last time you were in California? Mexicans may make up the largest representation of Latinos here, but we have a very large amount of Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Central Americans, Peruvian, Argentines and Colombians. Have you ever tried to speak Puerto Rican Spanish? How 'bout New Yorican Spanish? To me that's even worse then the Spanish of the Mexican day laborer!

PEOPLE....PLEASE.....PLEASE...DON'T START STEREOTYPING. Native speaking Latinos and Americano Latinos are two different species and we shouldn't compare their speech as a representation of an entire group! A Cuban is going to criticize a Puerto Rican who in turn redicules Mexicans who think Argentines speak funny but then again Argentines believe that their Spanish is the purest form of Castillian outside of Spain! And we all know that Spaniards have a speech impediment because THEY ALL LISP!

My nephew went to Spain about 5 years ago to be in a friend's wedding. It was his first time visiting Madrid and Barcelona. Mind you that he speaks Spanglish because he didn't formally learn Spanish. Well, to his horror, the language that he heard coming out of his friends mouths would make any Mexican blush with embarrasment. My nephew said that the words his friends used on a daily basis (mind you they were professionals) were curse words that any self respecting Mexican wouldn't use in mixed company!

So what's my point you ask? The point is.....language is not pure as some would like to assume it to be. Language is like a fresh flowing river, it comforts and refreshes, but it also contains impurities.

Frankly Im somewhat disappointed at Roci's comments that leaf blowers won't amount to anything else other than leaf blowers if they fail to appreciate that good language drives people up. Well, Roci you have a point, but we're not talking about corporate animatons back stabbing their way up the ladder, (believe me, I know, I was an Account Manager for a PHP for 12 years). And Fmiketheman, simply living in New York doesn't improve one's grammer, English or Spanish!

Build up...rather than tear down!