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#44216 - 05/18/03 03:40 PM spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Shona Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/14/03
Posts: 13
Loc: England
I've just been listening to the spanishradio and a comentary on all the football matches played tonight. The reporter said that someone had done a "hat-trick". To me-living in england having learnt spanish for 10 years-it makes me laugh that they then use english words. It sometimes makes me a bit annoyed that i spend ages learning spanish and then all these english words keep cropping up.
I know that we-the british-use words such a finca,salsa,sombrero,flamenco and lots more words but it seems to me that its a lot more widespread in the spanish langauge.
Is it just me?

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#44217 - 05/19/03 12:27 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
Hey Shona, I don't think that it's more widespread in Spanish, simply because there are many words in English that have no equivilent in Spanish or other languages, and being that English is the international language it has made it's way into the idiom of many languages. What you descirbed as Spanglish is not Spanglish to me. Here in the US, we speak Spanglish, and it's not just using an English word to substitute for Spanish. It's a blend of the two, sort of like putting a Chevy body on a Ford chassis. Aside from conversing in one language and switching to another in mid-sentence, Spanglish changes English words to sound Spanish, i.e. nikleh=nickle, daime=dime, lonche=lunch, puchar=to push.
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Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44218 - 05/19/03 09:29 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
El Boqueron Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/00
Posts: 421
Loc: UK
I think it's just football (futbol). It's a British invention, and when it went to Spain so did a lot of the terminology - chutar, driblar, gol, penalti, corner etc.

It's like Flamenco, all the terminology is Spanish, wherever you study it - rasgueo, compás, falseta, llamada, apoyando, tirando etc etc. If Flamenco was as popular as footy we'd all be saying things like "his toque has aire, but the rasgueo in the llamada was out of compás"! (well, maybe!)

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#44219 - 05/19/03 10:15 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Miguelito Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 603
I hate all the sport press. They make a very incorrect use of the language and they don't care about it at all. I hate the 'hat trick' expression and many others they do, although I find other words like chutar or penalti OK.

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#44220 - 05/19/03 06:02 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
CaliBasco Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/17/00
Posts: 1495
Loc: Idaho
Perhaps there needs to be a definition of what constitutes "Spanglish" (or Castellankee...). laugh

Much of the "ni de aquí ni de allí" language that passes itself off for Spanish/Spanglish in SoCal and AZ/NM/TX is nothing more than a lack of education/common usage. If that's your definition of Spanglish, then so be it, I can accept that.

In athletics (and science, too!), there are terminologies associated with the game/discipline of choice that are "borrowed" into other languages [ex. córner, pénalti, etc.]. If you consider that Spanglish, then so be it.

I don't think that the two usages are the same, however. I would tend to go along with the former rather than the latter when defining Spanglish. The latter is simply borrowing, a practice that has been going on linguistically since the Tower of Babel...if you don't agree, put in your favorite "cómpac dis", drop your head on your almohada and sleep on it. You'll come around by morning. wink

With the advent of technology and how quickly it develops, the associated terminology usually is described in terms of either a) the society that pioneered it, or b) the one that markets it. This may account for the proliferation of English terminologies in other languages, even though English itself isn't nearly as old as many of those languages.
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#44221 - 05/19/03 06:43 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Melinda328 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 78
Loc: Madrid
I was in Madrid over Christmas visiting some friends and we were driving to a hotel to meet someone. My Spanish friends (from Madrid and Barcelona) were asking me about Spanish in NY and saying how they HATE how latinos screw up Spanish by adding in English words. At that very moment, one of them said, "Tenemos que buscar un parking." <groan>

Melinda

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#44222 - 05/19/03 07:56 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
laugh laugh laugh
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The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44223 - 05/19/03 09:57 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Some "Spanglishisms" I can handle. Some make my skin crawl. One of the expressions that puts me over the edge is "Te llamo atras." (I'll call you back, for those of you who don't speak mocho.)

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#44224 - 05/19/03 11:13 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
fmiketheman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 317
Loc: ny,ny
hey everybody

i understand spanglish is mostly used by U.S. residents of mexican and puertorican heritage.
i dont use it because i consider it uncultured. rolleyes also because im proud of speaking spanish. cool i also speak galego/portuguese,castellano,some french and of course anglais :p .in spain its not actually used,especially not in valladolid and burgos.
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#44225 - 05/19/03 11:50 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
The reason why Spanish, Italian, German or any other language is mucked up here in the US is because our society doesn't encourage the use of other languages, and children of immigrants grow up having to learn English to function. The schools discourage children from using their native language in order to learn English. Also children want to fit in within their peers and don't want to appear different. They abandon the use of their native language almost completely, using it only at home or among family members. I grew up in Los Angeles and attended school there. Talk about a mixture of cultures...we had kids speaking Spanish, Cantonese, Mandarine, Korean, Japanese, Italian, Russian and Yiddish! All of them were thrown into ESL classes and were told they could not use their native languages at school. The English speaking kids were merciless towards them, and this included many Latino kids who no longer spoke or refused to speak Spanish.

Also, as the generations pass, the native language suffers, as well as traditions and customs. Im 3rd generation American and my Spanish is poor, the worst in my family. Because of this lack in language skill my sons did not learn Spanish. My wife is not Hispanic and does not speak Spanish. I am trying hard to improve my Spanish and my boys have shown interest whereas when they were younger I couldn't even get them to say Gracias!
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Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44226 - 05/21/03 01:27 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
fmiketheman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 317
Loc: ny,ny
hello everybody

Oso Major

thanks for explaining to me the reason why spanglish is so widespread among u.s. latinos.
I sure learn alot of cool stuff on this message board/website.i have become to be a more educated and enligntend person.
thanks again MM and others!
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fmiketheman

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#44227 - 06/17/03 10:21 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
PacoM Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 44
More funny translation blunders courtesy of
El-Castellano.com
http://www.elcastellano.org/elpais.html

<<delibera groserías>> (deliver grocery, reparte la compra)

<<necesita mujeres estériles>> (need steady women, necesita empleadas fijas).

<<vacunar la carpeta>> (vacuum the carpet, aspirar la alfombra)

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#44228 - 06/18/03 08:47 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
SRedw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 200
I don't have ANY problem with Spanglish at all. Here is why. I will never speak it and I don;t have a problem with hearing it. IT DOES SERVE A PURPOSE for those who speak it with friends and in the family. The problem arises when Spanglish speakers speak to people who use español culto. So, before downing something, look at the usefulness of it when it pertains to those who use it.

Remember that no one is forcing you to speak
Spanglish. Besides, I take it all with a grain of salt.

Shawn

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#44229 - 07/11/03 09:52 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
In following the spirit of this thread, I ran across an interesting article by professor Ilán Stavans in the prestigious Cuadernos Cervantes web page titled: Don Quijote de la Mancha , in Spanglish!
Quote:
In un placete de La Mancha of which nombre no quiero remembrearme, vivía, not so long ago, uno de esos gentlemen who always tienen una lanza in the rack, una buckler antigua, a skinny caballo y un grayhound para el chase. A cazuela with más beef than mutón, carne choppeada para la dinner, un omelet pa' los Sábados, lentil pa' los Viernes, y algún pigeon como delicacy especial pa' los Domingos, consumían tres cuarers de su income. El resto lo employaba en una coat de broadcloth y en soketes de velvetín pa' los holidays, with sus slippers pa' combinar, while los otros días de la semana él cut a figura de los más finos cloths. Livin with él eran una housekeeper en sus forties, una sobrina not yet twenty y un ladino del field y la marketa que le saddleaba el caballo al gentleman y wieldeaba un hookete pa' podear. El gentleman andaba por allí por los fifty. Era de complexión robusta pero un poco fresco en los bones y una cara leaneada y gaunteada. La gente sabía that él era un early riser y que gustaba mucho huntear. La gente say que su apellido was Quijada or Quesada &#8211;hay diferencia de opinión entre aquellos que han escrito sobre el sujeto&#8211; but acordando with las muchas conjecturas se entiende que era really Quejada. But all this no tiene mucha importancia pa' nuestro cuento, providiendo que al cuentarlo no nos separemos pa' nada de las verdá.
However, one may judge spanglish, as a useful adaptation, a prostitution of both languages,or an iniquity, it does serve a need. Sadly, it is not proper Spanish or proper English, but for the thousands of migrant workers working in the ferneries here in North Florida, it is a way of aculturating both languages. Most of the Spanglish speakers have had no formal training in either language and probably never will, however they must communicate in an environment where both their native Spanish and English coexist, and that is Profesor Ilán Stavans point.
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The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44230 - 07/13/03 07:21 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
I sense a feeling of snobbery by some when discussing this subject. I can appreciate that people that speak any language would like to be accurate and fluent in it especially native speakers.

There are several points we must consider when discussing Spanglish or any other "language-ish".

First, those that speak Spanglish are mostly of Hispanic/Latino heritage that were not born in a Spanish speaking country or they immigrated when very young and not schooled in Spanish.

Also, people that speak poorly usually have a limited education; for whatever reason. People that are poor or in the lower class of society generally don't speak their native language as correctly as those in middle and upper class groups. Of course this is a generalization as we've all spoken with people with limited education that speak quite eloquently. It doesn't matter what country you're from, Spain, England, the US; you're going to have people that speak poorly, and double that if you're attempting to speak a foreign language.

I have close friends that are third generation Italian. The sons don't speak Italian except for a few words. The parents speak immigrant Italian fused with English..."Italish". It sounds similar to Spanglish. In school we had a lot of Asian kids whose parents were from Hong Kong or Taiwan. What they spoke they called Chinese-American, not true Cantonese or Mandarin to the consternation of their parents.

Spanglish is not simply alternating English and Spanish words in your converstation. That's only part of it. You may not know the Spanish word you're trying to use so you substitute the English equivilant. Mostly it's modifying English words to sound Spanish. Previous examples I've given are: Nickle=Nikle,
Dime=Daime, Push=Puchar, Lunch=Lonche. Here's an example of how a conversation in Spanglish may sound: "Hey Steve, quieres lonchar (almuerzar)conmigo at McDonald's? No, that's OK, acabo de comer una dona, (doughnut)." Now, is this proper Spanish? No, it is not and the main point of this example is that the people that speak Spanglish KNOW that it is not proper Spanish! I do get a bit irritated when people try to better themselves by snubbing or criticizing others for using Spanglish by saying it's uneducated or uncultured. That may be true but what is the intention of your criticizm? To put down a group of people and elevate yourself? Or is it simply a statement regarding linguistical correctness? If you don't use Spanglish you should be greatful that you can speak fluent Spanish, but for those that do it is part of their upbringing and yes a part of their culture here in the US.
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#44231 - 07/13/03 07:46 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
In my experience, those who use Spanglish and are 2nd generation "Spanish" speakers do NOT know they are using incorrect Spanish and will fight any attempt on the part of educators to help them regain/improve their language. If we are talking about migrants who have no chance of getting an education, that's one thing. Non-English speakers who pick up vital vocabulary to communicate are doing what people have done for centuries and I give them a lot of credit. The kids who HAVE the opportunity to learn their language correctly and refuse...those are the ones I have a negative attitude towards. They don't speak Spanish well, don't speak Engish well, don't give a flying fat burger that they don't, and those of us in education have our feet pressed up against the coals BECAUSE they don't.

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#44232 - 07/13/03 08:43 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
La Maestra, I have a question for you: If I understand correctly, Spanglish is when an English word is adaped with Spanish word endings.
Such as "rufo" for roof, or parqueo for parking.

However, what is it called when you listen to a conversation where there is a mix of both English and Spanish, as though the person speaking cannot make up his/her mind what language he wished to speak:
I want to go to la casa early today because Mamá hizo un bizcocho for Junior's birthday party!
Is this spanglish?

OsoMayor,

Your point of view is well represented by Professor Ilán Stavans who will soon be publishing a book titled: Spanglish : The Making of a New American Language. He also has written a dictionary of Spanglish, as well.
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The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44233 - 07/13/03 09:31 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
Boy did I pull a nerve! The point I was trying to make was that this is how these people speak. I personally would get in someone's face (Im not directing this comment towards anyone here, so please do not take offense to it) if they were overly critical of my Spanish. Yes, I know it's not perfect, but hey, I wasn't born in Mexico either. Im not crazy about Spanglish but I am making progress, though it's not a priority in my life.

You La Maestra are an educator and I would expect a person in your field to be more critical. As you should be. In my early twenties I was a musician and studied music theory and fundamentals and I am quite critical of the music and so-called musicians today, so I can empathize. cool
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#44234 - 07/13/03 10:16 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Booklady, if memory serves it is called code switching. Language theory on this is that the speakers have a well developed sense of language because they can correctly use a legitimate word and the correct part of speech. This is not what I mean by Spanglish. It is more of what Oso was using. Lonche, brecas...that sort of thing.

I have had teachers apply for positions teaching Spanish who didn't know that there was any other word for lunch than lonche. I've had some who couldn't spell hermano and thought chica was shica. When they didn't get hired, they complained that we were too particular!

In terms of students, our local paper has been carrying stories about how our students cannot write effectively. Part of the writing process is attention to details like vocabulary and spelling,using proper register, and using the American organizational pattern. Maria Montaño Harmon has identified the Chicano pattern of organization based on the work of Robert Kaplan and has written quite extensively about it. Within the Hispanic communities in the American Southwest, it serves a purpose and binds speakers to each other. The problem is that when this is the only pattern/style of speech that these people use, they have difficulty being successful in school and in obtaining some kinds of work. Just as we would not expect someone to write a college entrance essay in which they talked about "dissin' my homies", we do not expect or accept papers in Spanish that use non-standard language. Unfortunately, there has not been any interest on the part of the communities where this is spoken to learn standard Spanish, and most definitely no interest in learning standard English. The attitude is that since they communicate well within their ethnic group, they are doing fine and don't need to know anything else.

Teachers are the ones who catch holy hell because there aren't enough Hispanics graduating from high school and going on to college, but if the students are not willing to learn, there's not much we can do. Arguments like "I didn't grow up with it" don't cut it with me. Neither did I. (By the way, that is another issue that probably should be discussed offline...if you happen to be anglo, don't even try to teach Spanish to Hispanics!)

There are a lot of dialects and forms of language, and they all serve a purpose. I appreciate and value them. I admire people like Jesse Jackson who are able to move freely from register to register, understanding how to function in each. And believe me, if I talked to people like an English teacher would in my daily life, I'd be talking to myself a lot! But NOT knowing how to write or speak correctly BY CHOICE enfuriates me.

I'm stepping down off my soapbox now!

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#44235 - 07/13/03 11:17 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Brava, La Maestra! You are aptly named. There is a wonderful article by Roberto González-Echeverría, professor of Hispanic Literature and Language at Yale University
titled Hablar spanglish es devaluar el español it is written in Spanish. He agrees with your point of view that spanglish erodes the beauty of the Spanish langugage.
Quote:
El spanglish es una invasión del español por el inglés.
Thank you for the code-switching! The other day I was speaking to another faculty member, who also happens to be Cuban, and we always speak in Spanish and found ourselves discussing distance learning issues, and in particular the problems students have because of their lack of computer literacy skills. In this discussion, which began in Spanish, we found ourselves using English to describe computer terminology like e-mail, upload, etc, because we did not know its Spanish equivalent. frown eek

I need to get a bi-lingual computer science dictionary for these new words!

rolleyes
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The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44236 - 07/13/03 11:25 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Booklady, I have some of the computer words that I could share with you, but many of the computer terms seem to be English based anyway! In addition, the words used in Spain regarding computers (including the word for computer) are different from those in the Americas! Perhaps some of our native speakers could help out here?

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#44237 - 07/14/03 12:09 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
La Maestra...you are right and I agree with you 100% It's always best to speak any language correctly. Unfortunately many don't and I too hate hearing Spanish or English being butchered. One of my pet peeves in English writing is the apostrophy. People now a days place that damn thing anywhere an s appears without thinking about how to use it. I'll give you a great example...do you have Carl's Jr. fast food restaurants in Arizona? OK, so why is there an apostrophy in Carl? Is it trying to say Carl's Jr. Restaurant or Carl's Jr. Hamburgers? What belongs to Carl? It's not specific, it's just Carl's Jr.

I really don't know the specifics why Hispanic kids do so poorly in academics especially when I see them in schools mixed with a number of other ethnic kids in the same neighborhoods and income bracket. I don't believe that it is simply a language barrier. Im not including newly arrived kids from Latin American countries, although it is strikingly surprising to me that kids from these countries seem to do better in school than their American Latino cousins. My reasoning on this is because they weren't exposed to all the distractions kids have here in the US and possibly having it more difficult in their native country where you had to excel in order to be successful in life. I believe their parents stress education much more to these kids than the parents of our American kids. Why is it that Asian kids in the same social level with Latino kids do so much better in school? Because their parents stress education and expect them to do well in school. I went to school with many Asian kids and the majority did very well, outperfoming both white and hispanic kids. And, it wasn't because they were smarter per se, it was simply because their parents were strict regarding their schooling and made them hit the books! The same thing is true among Jewish kids. The typical response from a latino parent to his kid is...if you're not interested in school than you'd better find yourself a job! Where's the incentive to learn? I have two sons, 15 and 18yrs old. One will be attending college this fall and the other is doing OK in school. He could be doing better but he's a little lazy so I have to keep him on his toes. He is improving and Im noticing more interest in his school work. How did we get on the subject of education? Oh well, parents need to be more involved with their children's education than just sending off to school and let the teachers take care of it!
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#44238 - 07/17/03 04:14 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
mikey Offline
Member

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 67
Loc: ny
My best friend is of Spanish decent. His parents came to the US when they were in their twenties. They only speak Spanish at home. All three of their sons speak great Spanish. When they go to Spain everyone thinks they speak funny. Meanwhile they have learned the same structure and syntax the kids learned in Spain(my friend and his bros. also went to Spanish school run by Instituto Cervantes in New York). I think a lot of this discussion focuses on "they don't want to learn, they're not motivated". The basic idea of language does not just rest on the words and syntax that comprise it. Language is a constantly changing system that is comprised of not only words and syntax but also its interaction with other languages and words. The symbols the words signify change as well as the words. (Maybe I studied too much literary theory). They grew up in different places and although the education is practiaclly the same there are still major differences. Their separation from Spain and speaking to those in Spain transformed their Spanish into something different.
I minored in Spanish in college and saw many hispanic students that had trouble with grammar, pronunciation, etc. I thought it was a bit strange since they had obviously spoken it and used it daily. This must come from parental neglect I guess. You can't really expect a child of 3 or 4 years old to be motivated to preserve the integrity of his/her mother tongue. Once you pass 13 or 14 it becomes very hard to absorb a language (anyone knows this). I also wouldn't come down so heavy on those children or persons who don't feel this great need to speak their mother tongue. I mean really it's their decision let them be. I am Greek, Italian, Scottish and Irish. I don't speak Greek or Italian (or Gaelic ha!) I studied Spanish, go figure.
As far as Spanglish goes I thought it was just the substitution of English words for Spanish ones, or vice versa. Tengo que rellenar ese form para el banco. Other things like, Tengo que comprar unos Pampers I don't consider to be Spanglish. We say Pampers in English so using it in Spanish is fine. It's a product and that name can be used in all languages.

Just my opinion

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#44239 - 07/17/03 07:20 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Hola Mickey,
In your post you said:
Quote:
As far as Spanglish goes I thought it was just the substitution of English words for Spanish ones, or vice versa.
I asked La Maestra the same question, and she called that substitution, code switching from one language to the other.
That is very common among bi-lingual people. Here is her response:
Quote:
Booklady, if memory serves it is called code switching. Language theory on this is that the speakers have a well developed sense of language because they can correctly use a legitimate word and the correct part of speech. This is not what I mean by Spanglish. It is more of what Oso was using. Lonche, brecas...that sort of thing.
Spanglish is when you take an English word and change it, here is Dr. Stavans example:
Quote:
In un placete de La Mancha of which nombre no quiero remembrearme,
The English words place and remember became placete and remembrearme These words are innovative but they are neither Spanish words nor English words they are Spanglish words.

One of the problems that linguists like Dr. Stavans is working on is the problem of one lexicon for the Spanglish words. What may make sense to Mexican-americans, may not make sense to Cuban-Americans. So there are variations of Spanglish among the Latino communities. Fascinanting topic!
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44240 - 07/18/03 04:27 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Since a great deal of English, French, and Spanish, is rooted back to Latin, aren't we being a bit "lofty" in sticking our noses skyward at the thought that someone might "mix" languages in speech? Since we have English words that have Spanish & French roots, why would Spanish be "so unique" as to not have the same? Why would people who mixed them together be considered less than someone who doesn't?

If you want to "preserve" your language for yourself, look down your nose at those that speak it poorly. If you want more people to learn the language, and how to communicate in it, don't be stuffed shirts about it. The only one who looks like a fool is the stuffed shirt.

Sorry! Had to be said.

Wolf

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#44241 - 07/18/03 06:32 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Eddie Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/05/00
Posts: 1713
Loc: Phila., PA, USA
Booklady writes:
Quote:
One of the problems that linguists like Dr. Stavans is working on is the problem of one lexicon for the Spanglish words. What may make sense to Mexican-americans, may not make sense to Cuban-Americans. So there are variations of Spanglish among the Latino communities.
Exactly! But don't leave out the Puerto Ricans. Their 'Spanglish' is different from either the Mexican or the Cuban.

I've spoken with Hispanics who were functionally illiterate in both English and Spanish. They try to hide their English illiteracy by saying they spoke Spanish (or they were Spanish); but when push came to shove they weren't really competent in Spanish either. Enter Spanglish! rolleyes

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#44242 - 07/18/03 10:21 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Wolf, Eddie's last paragraph points out the part of Spanglish that annoys me. Remember, now, that my job is to teach students to meet all the high standards that various politicos have established. If my students do not make the grade, I am the one held accountable. That means that language purity becomes a personal matter to me....one that I am indeed stuffy about! If the public would like for teachers NOT to worry about trivialities like competence in language, then I will happily pull the stuffing out wink .

I have had parents furious with me when I tried to improve the language skills of their children on the grounds that making them fluent in a language would be against their culture! Evidently they don't realize that knowing how to speak slang doesn't mean you can't also know how to speak "textbook."

I have no problem with using individual words of one language within another. "Tengo que comprar Pampers" is not Spanglish any more than "We had fajitas for dinner" is. That is using a valid word from one language in another.

I have problems with awful spelling and grammar, but that is true in both languages. "Gárrame el niño" bothers me because there is no such word as "garrar" and because if the speaker is thinking "agarrar," it is not the best word to use when you are dealing with a child eek . I have images of a kid being held by his neck like a chicken! Similarly, I don't want to see "muncho" or "ermano" in a student paper. But then, I get just as upset with "should of" in English! These are language problems that language teachers are responsible for dealing with, and these problems aren't spanglish either!

Spanglish is using a word that did not exist in the native language but sounds like one that does in the second language.(ex. lonche chequear, guáchelo) These words are used so often and by so many people that they now appear in the dictionary! The problem is that these words tend to be regional/ethnic and when these words become the only words the "wannabe Spanish speakers" know, they may be unable to communicate with the larger Spanish speaking population and are frequently unable to obtain bilingual jobs. Their spanglish is indeed a language, just like creole or ebonics or cockney English. But if that is all you know, you have limited yourself. If I weren't responsible for your education, I frankly couldn't care less. It is your choice, after all. BUT, since I AM in that position, it is my business to encourage correct language usage. Sorry for being so stuffy, Wolf, but that's my job!

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#44243 - 07/18/03 10:47 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
la maestra,

I totally agree that the classroom requires a different acumen for Spanish than the Spanish learned - let's say - "on the street," without benefit of formally being taught. It's that outside area where the concept becomes murky, if for no other reason than the majority of people who come from Spanish speaking nations, as immigrants, into the U.S., do not have the benefit of being properly taught. It's those people that we have to understand, because they're the ones most likely to use Spanglish.

I just don't want us to think that anyone who doesn't speak a language fluently, or without erring in word choices, or has an accent, is unworthy. To me, they are just as viable in society as the person whose diction is perfect.

No offense intended to the teaching profession. I give credit to the teachers who pull their hair out day after day in a classroom, trying to get students to speak a language correctly.

Wolf

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#44244 - 07/19/03 03:34 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
miche_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 181
What about words such as 'chaval(a)' inf (chico,chica)? Isn't chaval a word the gitanos influenced into the Spanish language from the Roma language? amongst many others.

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#44245 - 07/21/03 10:18 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Miguelito Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 603
Yes, the Roma language has a dialect amongst Spanish Gipsies called caló, which keeps the basic words of the Roma language but mixed with the Spanish grammar.
The caló has introduced many words to Spanish like chaval, chungo, currar, camelar, chola ...
have a look here to know more.
http://www.andalucia.cc/comunidadgitana/idioma.htm

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#44246 - 07/23/03 10:37 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
miche_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 181
Thanks Miguelito!!
I didn't know about the Calo dialect. Interesting isn't it.

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#44247 - 07/24/03 02:03 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Miguelito Offline
Member

Registered: 01/23/01
Posts: 603
I think there was another interesting dialect called lenguaje de germanías, that was used by the thieves and criminal organizations long time ago, it was like an old slang, that appears in some Cervantes picaresca novels.

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#44248 - 07/31/03 08:31 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
SRedw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/02
Posts: 200
Once again, I don't have a problem with Spanglish. I love the way that languages evolve and that's going to happen when languages come into contact with one another.

La maestra, I am a Spanish instructor also and my students know that they can speak Spanglish at home and in the street, but not in my classroom. I really don't let it upset me.

Those who really want to get to the heart of what Spanglish is should read

The Spanish Language Today
Miranda Stewart

Now that we have let our emotions come out, the time has come for some educational reading and a thread free of personal opinions and dislikes. Let's see if we can acomplish this.

Shawn

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#44249 - 08/01/03 12:11 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Rocinante Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 87
Loc: N. Redondo Beach, CA
"a thread free of personal opinions and dislikes"...

How boring. (IMO) wink

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#44250 - 08/02/03 03:16 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
SRedW (Shawn),It's impossible not to be opinionated and be Spanish! wink
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Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44251 - 08/02/03 11:43 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Hola querido Shawn,

A good try for a pedagogical discussion laugh ! I will look at for the Stewart book. I have only read the works of Dr. Stavans. I cited links to his website and articles earlier on this thread. I love being "on the ground floor" pardon my pun, when a language is developing or morphing.

We do live in linguistically fascinating times!

Besitos,
Carmen

p.s. a friend sent me this, I just have to share! You Cubans out there will love the way the student has described cuban history laugh

Quote:
Tenía yo un alumno de ascendencia cubana, avispado y notable, que tuvo a
bien mandarme un trabajo sobre Cuba escrito por su hermano menor, quien había llegado ya a las tramoyas del high school.

Parece ser que el pobre muchacho quería aprender historia cubana, pero entre lo que le enseñaban en el colegio, lo que le contaban sus padres, las
enfurecidas aclaraciones de su abuelo --las cuales él apenas entendía porque hablaba más inglés que español-- y lo que tronaba en la radio y la televisión, se le hizo tal confusión en la mente que decidió despejarla poniendo por escrito lo que había aprendido sobre la history de Cuba.

He aquí el texto de su paper.

Cuba is an island descubierta por Columbus, quien vino con una niña pintada y una santa llamada María. El viaje se lo pagó con algunas jewels
la reina de Spain, que era muy católica. En la isla los Spaniards aprendieron a hacer una beer que se llamaba Hatuey, en memory de un indio que prendía hogueras and hated the Spaniards, a pesar de que un good Spanish priest les construyó muchas casas.

For many centurias, los Spaniards ocuparon la isla y la explotaron con tabaco, azúcar y pedacitos de café que llamaban
cortaditos. Para que ayudaran a la explotación del sugar, los Spaniards trajeron esclavos africanos, que eran muy musicales e inmediatamente
inventaron la rumba, el vudú, y el mambo.

Los cubanos no querían a los Spaniards ni a sus explotaciones y comenzaron a planear rebeliones. Los cubanos en esa época se llamaban mambises because they had invented el mambo, y eran muy marcianos because seguían las ideas de José Marcí, un great leader who wrote poems for
children. En esa época the Cubans comenzaron por quemar un town llamado Bayamo y, por razones que no logré averiguar, esta vez los Spaniards no
pudieron apagar el fuego.

Después de muchas luchas y campiñas, los Americans decidieron intervenir y mandaron a La Habana un warship que se llamaba Maine. Los Spaniards, que eran muy explotadores, explotaron al Maine y los Americans les declararon
la guerra.

The Spaniards ganaron rápidamente una guerra que llamaron una`splendid little war', ocuparon the island y obligaron a los mambises,for misterious reasons, a comer un plato sureño que se llamaba la ensalada Platt, la cual provocó many protestas y discusiones...

The first President of the Republic llegó al poder por una estrada y se encaramó en una palma. Era an honest man, pero no muy tough, y cuando
hubo otra rebelión se bajó de la palma y llamó a los Americans.

After todas esas luchas Cuba se hizo free y comenzó a progresar. En 1934, los Americans
y los Cubans se pusieron de acuerdo para abolir la ensalada Platt y dejar que cada cual comiera lo que quisiera. Los cubanos enseguida inventaron el chicharrón y el sandwich y se sintieron muy happy.

Pero había muchos political problems, sobre todo with a tough president, manchado por la
dictadura, y un sergeant llamado Batista, que quería ser general, y a quien un presidente casi santo, de apellido Martín, and another llamado Prío, and a very popular líder llamado Eddy, quien amaba las chivas because they were
symbols de honestidad, no querían dejar que el sargento fuera general.

En 1952 Batista le dio un golpe al estado y Fidel Castro atacó a un tipo que se llamaba Moncada. Luego Fidel se fue a México and, according to
my grandfather, se unió a un atorrante argentino, se armó con una sierra y se fue con una maestra a hacer guerrilla warfare. Muchos cubanos, y algunos
mambises que todavía quedaban, helped him en la lucha, but many others, incluyendo a mi abuelo, no se dejaron engañar by the barbudo and from the
very beginning supieron que Fidel era un Commie.

Entonces Batista escaped to Spain, and Castro llegó al poder y dijo que era verdad que él era
comunista, le quitó todo a todo el mundo, trajo Soviet missiles, e impuso en Cuba un real dictatorship. Many Cubans se escaparon para el norte y fundaron la Florida y Miami. Otros se fueron a Puerto Rico y España. But many tuvieron que quedarse en la isla y los castigaron por quedarse. Hoy en día los cubanos están muy poor y quieren que Castro se vaya, pero el barbudo ha dicho que no deal y que se queda.

Todo esto ocurrió hace muchos años pero, como dice mi abuelo, el que no aprende lo que pasó before no puede saber lo que está pasando now.


_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44252 - 08/02/03 01:57 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
Booklady:

That Cuban history report is a joke right!? I was roflmao! So, Christopher Columbus arrived in Cuba with a painted girl and a saint named Maria! And those Spaniards sure depleted Cuba of cortaditos! And of course those poor African slaves were singing and dancing in the sugar fields...AGAIN...I can't believe this is real... laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44253 - 08/02/03 07:30 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
fmiketheman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 317
Loc: ny,ny
hey everybody

eek eek eek
_________________________
fmiketheman

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#44254 - 08/02/03 08:39 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Oso,

This was mailed to me by my cousin who is a teacher in Miami. I suspect that it may be true, and not a "teacher legend." But, I cannot verify this. I say this because I teach Western Humanities to college freshmen and sophmores, and it is not uncommon to find this type of missinformation about historical facts. I cannot share them on this venue for ethical reasons. Have you ever listened in to Jay Leno's Jaywalking?

Examine, however, Oso, the way the youngster switches language. Our Cuban Spanglish!

If you read the story literally... absolutely nothing that the poor boy wrote about Cuban history, or history in general, was accurate.

As the teacher said: The boy wanted to learn Cuban history. He, in his confusion and ignorance, however, drafted his history based on faulty paradigms.

1. He gathered information from the new revisionist history of the Spanish Conquest of the Americas,that was taught to him at school. Which as we discussed in another thread perpetuates the Leyenda Negra.

2. The faulty anecdotal memory of his parents, which may be seen as oral history, if it is substantiated by others. The parents were probably not historians or specialist in Cuban history, they may have learned cuban history in their childhood, and passed on to the child as fact, information that was not quite clear, he made his own 21st conclusions.

3. The histrionic ravings of his grandfather, who probably spoke only Spanish, which the boy could barely understand because his knowledge of English was greater than Spanish.

4. Plus the missinformation he gathered from the Miami news media, which I can verify is great!

Ergo, the confusion in the boy's mind was so great that he was totally lost to the accuracy of historical fact as stressed in the official cannon of history.

But the reason I shared this story was not due to the youngster's lack of historical training and perspective, but the way he wrote his report! He was code-switching from English to Spanish and vice versa! This according to Dr. Stavans, is the beginning of the forming of a new language!

So, for the purpose of this thread, the way he wrote the paper, and not its content is what I wanted to share. laugh

BTW Oso, what is the term you used: rflamo?
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44255 - 08/02/03 09:12 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
Oh Booklady, don't get me wrong, I understood the point of the post. It's sad but at the same time it's ironically humerous. Funny to read it, but sad that someone actually wrote it for a school report.

It's so typical of young American teens today, knowing hardly anything about world history and geography. Hell, some don't even know where Canada and Mexico are located! rolleyes
_________________________
Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44256 - 08/02/03 09:28 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Oso, thank goodness! I hope I was not misunderstood.

You are so right about the problems in education.
Going back to the problem of language. I believe that because the Latino population is so big and widespread that Dr. Stavans is right and Spanglish will become a common language in the U.S., and I suspect only in the U.S. I see it everywhere. I recently received a free CD from AOL in the mail and it was in Spanglish. These people recognize that a linguistic change has occured among the Latino peoples in the U.S.A. and are marketing themselves to that community.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#44257 - 08/02/03 10:59 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Booklady, it seems to me that the language the student was using involved code switching, not Spanglish. The Spanish words used were really Spanish words, conjugated correctly and all, right? And the English words were really English words, used as they would be used if the entire sentence had been in English. This suggests that both languages have been internalized enough to enable the speaker to maintain correct grammar and syntax while switching language "code." This is not what I understand by Spanglish at all. Had they said something like "chequearon" for checked, or "eatieron" for ate, or "undresieron" for undressed, THAT would be Spanglish because the English word and the Spanish word are merged into one word that had not existed as such in either language before. Some of these are used so commonly now (as I think I've said before) that they are considered standard usage in border areas. Normally when a word is added to a language, very little is done to it to adapt it. Khaki, menage a trois, coup d'etat, rodeo, blitzkreig, etc. maintain their original spelling and always seem "foreign." In Spanglish, the word is not used in its original form, and the speakers (generally border folk who hear both languages all the time and are usually not well trained in either) gradually assume that the word they have coined is understood by every Spanish speaker as a Spanish word. A few years ago we went to Spain with a group of kids from Texas who were very fluent in Spanglish...and it about drove our tour guide nuts! Since she spoke both languages, she could eventually understand what they were trying to say, but comprehension of Spanglish requires some knowledge of both languages. Am I making any sense here?

The incorporation of foreign vocabulary has always been a part of language. And perhaps what the Spanish we speak now is the Spanglish of centuries ago when the Latin that was left by the Romans merged with whatever the rest of the Iberian peninsula was speaking to become Spanish. SOMETHING happened, because while Portuguese, French, Spanish and Italian are similar, they are not the same. The danger with Spanglish is that with the shrinking of the world due to speed of travel, internet, etc., we want to be MORE able to communicate with each other, not less. The Spanglish I am referring to limits those who speak it in that they are not able to communicate with the rest of the Spanish speaking world.

As for the historical part of that paper...well, that's a entirely different issue!!!!! I taught a group of Mexican students 7th grade geography. It took 4 TESTS for them to be able to correctly identify the US, Mexico, Canada, the Atlantic and the Pacific on a map of North America! No joke, folks! It's unbelievable.

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#44258 - 08/03/03 03:52 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Rocinante Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 87
Loc: N. Redondo Beach, CA
No Meastra, it's all too believable. The average American's grasp of geography is utterly atrocious (as my English spelling has become). People laugh and muse about it, but it's truly sad I believe, and shows an overall disregard for anything taking place outside of one's own back yard. I presume this is human nature - out of sight, out of mind, but I don't see it getting any better for America's youth.

I have internally debated becoming a high school Spanish teacher myself, but every teacher I've ever spoken with in California WITHOUT exception has told me: Don't do it! A teacher of 30 years told me verbatum that the kids are nearly illiterate and, I quote here, "f*****g idiots".

Many of you may find this harsh, but so far this does not encourage me to dedicate such time and money to an under-paid, under-appreciated profession that in 5-7 years many people leave anyway.

This topic is for another thread on another board however.

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#44259 - 08/03/03 04:13 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
Rocinante, I am about to start my 35th school year. Yes, it is an uphill battle against the wind, but teaching has tremendous rewards. Years ago, back in Catholic grade school, nuns used to talk about vocations and callings. Teaching must be that. If you go into it for money or job security, you won't last.
But yes, we probably should be putting this on the teachers' forum!

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#44260 - 08/03/03 04:32 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
Oh my poor Maiestra! I feel for you because you truely wish these kids could get it through their heads what you're trying to convey and teach. But I must say that it is not just only in the Latino community. We live in a very affluent area of Orange County (we're the po' folks of the neighborhood wink )and the high school that my son attends is one of the best in OC, but my son tells me that many of the kids don't even bother with school work. He said they don't turn assignments in, don't care, and are more interested in thir social lives. These kids have it made. Hell, their cars are better than mine! And I listen to these kids talking to each other and it's sad. But, just remember that the majority of kids do learn and want to learn and those are the ones that teachers should focus on. Not that bad students don't require help, but let's face it, teachers are very stressed and stretched sometimes beyond what's required of them to do.

Changes in language is inevitable, as is occured in the Roman empire. I was bemoaning the fact that the veseo is pretty much gone in Spain, which I love to listen to and read. Fortunately for me I still have my Tunos that still use it and I can get my fix! smile
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Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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#44261 - 08/04/03 09:09 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
miche_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 181
Rocinante, that was a bit harsh and it's just as well that you do not enter into the world of teaching. As for f*****g idiots; Presidents and others of high stature and profession can qualify as FI's.
Those who CAN,teach.

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#44262 - 08/04/03 10:09 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
miche_dup1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 181
To me, how one puts across their ideas no matter how, is important to me.
Do we stop talking to old folk from the country who perhaps left school at a very early age or have never been to school just because they may not speak 'properly'?
I just love talking and listening to colloquial uses of language, dialects, accents, etc etc.

Eloquency of communication is what is important.
Shaw's 'Pygmalion' comes to my mind here.

Higgins, professor of phonetics, is horrified to say the least over Liza's, (a common street flower girl), use of English. So much so that he finds her amazingly curious and agrees to teach her proper English usage as a bet to his friend to pass her of as a grand Duchess at a ball. In the end Liza wins Higgins' respect and adoration. But it is his aquaintance with her father, Alfred Doolittle, a common cockney dust man, who bowls and charms him over with his 'common' and vulgar but creative use of English. Great play.
Pygmalion
.......
Salma Hayek's response to;
"Who speaks Spanish that you are really desperate to talk to? The help? YOur leaf Blower?"

was,

"...If I were you, I would start talking to the help and the leaf blowers; it seems to me they have a lot to teach you."

And I couldn't agree more.

One last thing. In a small town in the South of Italy, where my husband is from, dialect is used widely with the exception of the 'young ones'. While my Italian is limited to a very basic survival level, how is it that I am able to speak to the old folk who speak with unrecognisable Italian?
and they in turn talk and wish converse with me?
They speak with passion and energy and take great care in conveying what is said to others and in such a great colorful and eloquent way.
Gesticulation being a great help laugh , there is a universal understanding, I can't quite put my finger on it, but if one is open, respectful and interested, the rewards are bountiful.

Anyway, thanks for humouring me. cool

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#44263 - 08/04/03 02:21 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
Rocinante Offline
Member

Registered: 12/21/01
Posts: 87
Loc: N. Redondo Beach, CA
"As for f*****g idiots; Presidents and others of high stature and professions can qualify as FI's."

This is all well and true, but they sure get paid a whole hell of a lot better than teachers do, and many times for less stress.

Your points about the richness of coloquialism are understood. I too love this aspect of language. It is grossly naive to think however that leaf-blowers will become anything other than leaf-blowers (except maybe some one in charge of leaf blowers at best) if they refuse to recognize that register of language is crucial to upward mobility. The way one speaks influences where one goes in life, most of the time. Yes, you may use the current President as an example to the contrary, but in these examples, when you come from so much money, it doesn't matter as much.

I frequently come in contact with 'latinos' in the L.A. area and try to converse with them (I'm not talking about hispanics born outside the U.S who do speak fluently). I inevitably find that they really don't have a grasp of the Spanish language, just a limited working vocabulary/phrasology that they use amongst themselves, like 'odale huey', 'andale pues','Qué ondaaaaaaaa', and an array of explative having to do with 'madre'. When I try to engage in any kind of reasonable diologue, they immediately return to English (which they don't particulary speak all that well either), partly I think because they know I'm a non 'latino' and also because I honestly don't think they understand what I'm saying. Somehow I don't see these individuals advancing real far in the social latter. At least no one I know would hire them.

My point to all of this is these speech patterns are not curtailed during the education process, they are coming out of school already at a huge disadvantage.

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#44264 - 08/04/03 04:19 PM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
fmiketheman Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 317
Loc: ny,ny
hey everybody

that speech sounds more like mexican than latino.
in california latinos are mostly mexican.up hear in nyc we have a more variey of latinos,and more spaniards as well.
_________________________
fmiketheman

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#44265 - 08/05/03 01:51 AM Re: spanglish-wot does everyone think about it?
OsoMajor Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 330
Loc: Garden Grove, California
"that speech sounds more like mexican than latino.
in california latinos are mostly mexican.up hear in nyc we have a more variey of latinos,and more spaniards as well."

--------------------
fmiketheman

-------------------------------------------------

Fmiketheman...My Man...when was the last time you were in California? Mexicans may make up the largest representation of Latinos here, but we have a very large amount of Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Central Americans, Peruvian, Argentines and Colombians. Have you ever tried to speak Puerto Rican Spanish? How 'bout New Yorican Spanish? To me that's even worse then the Spanish of the Mexican day laborer!

PEOPLE....PLEASE.....PLEASE...DON'T START STEREOTYPING. Native speaking Latinos and Americano Latinos are two different species and we shouldn't compare their speech as a representation of an entire group! A Cuban is going to criticize a Puerto Rican who in turn redicules Mexicans who think Argentines speak funny but then again Argentines believe that their Spanish is the purest form of Castillian outside of Spain! And we all know that Spaniards have a speech impediment because THEY ALL LISP!

My nephew went to Spain about 5 years ago to be in a friend's wedding. It was his first time visiting Madrid and Barcelona. Mind you that he speaks Spanglish because he didn't formally learn Spanish. Well, to his horror, the language that he heard coming out of his friends mouths would make any Mexican blush with embarrasment. My nephew said that the words his friends used on a daily basis (mind you they were professionals) were curse words that any self respecting Mexican wouldn't use in mixed company!

So what's my point you ask? rolleyes The point is.....language is not pure as some would like to assume it to be. Language is like a fresh flowing river, it comforts and refreshes, but it also contains impurities.

Frankly Im somewhat disappointed at Roci's comments that leaf blowers won't amount to anything else other than leaf blowers if they fail to appreciate that good language drives people up. Well, Roci you have a point, but we're not talking about corporate animatons back stabbing their way up the ladder, (believe me, I know, I was an Account Manager for a PHP for 12 years). And Fmiketheman, simply living in New York doesn't improve one's grammer, English or Spanish!

Build up...rather than tear down!
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Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!

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