The most (in)famous for overcorrecting are the gaditanos (those from Cádiz). On many an occasion have I crossed paths with a gaditano and heard them introduce themselves by saying: "Yo thoy de Cádis"...whoops!

[originally posted by cantamal on 01-17-2002 05:23 PM...]

If he had a lisp and everyone was made to copy it then wouldn't the "S" be pronounced as "th" along with the C and Z?
Wouldn't Salazar be pronounced "Thalathar"?

Or Salsa would be "THalTHa". Can't be, unless it was a selective lisp.

What do you thay?

Cantamal

And I KNOW my friends in Salamanca said "thenithero." Were they wrong, according to the Spanish Academy?

And what about "Madrith," which I heard often as well?

Cenicero is as you've posted it: thenithero...

As for the Madrith...the "d" in that position is pronounced like the "dth" in "breadth" or "width". So "Madrith" is actually "Madridth"...the tongue makes an ever-so-brief interdental poke in order to make that sound...wow, interdental, sounds funky, huh?

Taravb, let's see the different pronunciations for cenicero:
"thenithero": standard Castilian Spanish. It's NOT "ceceo".
"senisero": with "seseo". It's accepted and you'll be likely to hear this in Andalucia, Extremadura,the Canary Islands and, of course, LatinAmerica.

An example of "ceceo" with the word "Salamanca":
"Salamanca": Standard pronuntiation.
"Thalamanca": This is "ceceo". It's not accepted.

About the word "Madrid" I guess it's easier for some people (madrileños especially)to "help themselves" with this "dth" sound (soft th) instead of pronouncing only the "d". We speak fast and I think this is one of the reason for that "irregular" pronuciation. However, if you go to Cataluña, the'll pronounce "Madrid" as "Madrit".

Wow, thanks! I am glad to know I haven't been mispronouncing all those words (well, in any way other than my American accent!). I have felt the tendency to do the ceceo, though, when I am speaking very quickly and the sentence contains a combination of C/S/Z. That gets really tricky, as I have trouble switching rapidly between the interdental and the regular "sssss" sound.

It reminds me of trying to roll the "rr," which took a long time to learn!! I had a teacher who told me to say, over and over again, "pot of tea." After a while, it becomes "para ti," with a nicely rolled little r in there. It's not the "rr," exactly, but it's a good way for Americans who can't do that to get started.

What letter sounds in English give Castilian-speakers the most trouble? I notice the little "es" in words that begin with "s" (esmall rather than small) sometimes. Why is that such a hard thing to learn, when Castilian speakers don't seem to say "esalamanca"? Is it "s" followed by particular consonant sounds?

Tara

Tara: The problem with the "s" is when it is followed by ANY consonant.

Castiza: in Extremadura there is no "seseo" (nor "ceceo").


Saludos.

I teach English here and spend a good deal of time focusing on pronunciation with my more advanced students.

Castillian speakers (and Spanish speakers in general) seem to have difficulty in differentiating between the long and short vowel sounds for example beet and bit or he´s and his. The sounds are "too similar" for many students to differenciate immediately.

Of course the venerable "s" sound is also difficult. I coach my students to think of a sssssserpiente so they can get the "hissing" (but not really hissing) sound down right.

Any other English sounds out there that present difficulty for those who speak Spanish as their first language?

Francisco, not all extremeños "sesean" (and not all andaluces) but I asure you I've heard a lot of them "sesear".

The difficulty about the initial "s" is because we don't have the "s"+consonant in spanish, it's always vowel+"s" at the beginning of the word.
Another problem, as Chica pointed, are the vowels sound. We only have one sound for every vowel (just 5 sounds!)and it's more difficult to learn what you don't have in your language.
In our language structure is very unusual to see so many consonants in a row (is this correct?)without vowels in a word, we're not used to it and that makes it hard to pronounce for us.

About the "rr" sound, just imagine an engine starting. There are a lot of tongue-twisters, such as: "El perro de San Roque no tiene rabo porque Ramón Ramírez se lo ha cortado". Good for exercising!

A lot of practice is really needed to get the rr-sound right. I usually think of a line in a song: ... de rrrodillas te rrruego no me dejes así...

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: Tia ]