Take a deep breath Shawn. Our beloved Castillian is alive and well and being taught, if for no other reason than that the college entrance exams require it...JUST KIDDING!!! I teach vosotros and my students, especially those who are going to Costa Rica, are "aware" of vos and adapt to it quite readily, as the ones who go on the trip to Spain easily add the vosotros to their speech. It's a very simple form to learn.
What la maestra and I are trying to say is that foreign language teaching methods have changed and sometimes we have to make adjustments to the old curriculum in order to keep interest high.
You have to understand that we are not dealing, for the most part, with students who have a burning desire to acquire the Spanish language at any cost. Students such as you apparently were, eager to immerse themselves in knowledge and soak it up like sponges, are few and far between these days. Competition for college slots, as well as the "dot.com-get-rich-by-the-time-you're-30" attitude has turned public high schools into diploma factories. Most kids want one of two things out of it: a marketable skill (think Tech Ed.) or a diploma and a high grade point so they can go to college
and...develop a marketable skill!!! YES! Colleges are no longer for a broad EDUCATION! They're a step on the ladder to getting a WELL-PAYING job. I deplore this as much as I'm sure you do but it's the attitude we high school teachers live with. Of course, there are exceptions - and they're why I'm still teaching at the ripe old age of 53. I went to a private H.S. where learning was its own reward and TWO foreign languages were required for graduation. Times have changed. We now compete with TV, the Internet, sports (there are more all the time - we've just added soccer and rugby at our school), jobs (they have car payments to make, you know)and those blasted calculators that have video games on them. I could also mention parents who want the grad requirements lowered and those who petition to have their son or daughter graduate early because they "have all the necessary credits" and can get a better job if they graduate in January. And I haven't even touched on the problems that arise from poverty and broken homes.
We want kids to speak Spanish so they'll be comfortable someday traveling to Spain and maybe Central and South America and we hope, Mexico (I do think it should be spelled the way the Mexicans spell it when we write about it in English - it isn't a Spanish word). We teach them what they want to learn so that later, they'll gladly accept what WE WANT them to learn. If we treat them as little empty vessels, to be filled with whatever we think they should want to learn, we'll be quickly disenchanted. They no longer look to their teachers to tell them what they should learn. They look to Corporate America (i.e. $$$$$$) Who do we blame for that?

Thank you again, Catalina, for clarifying what we deal with!

I teach 7th and 8th graders Spanish for high school credit in a public school. I don't know about you, but I wasn't able to study a foreign language until I was in high school, so these kids have a jump start. I see 30 kids for 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week. If I assume that I spend some 20 minutes explaining something, then each student gets to speak Spanish 5 whole minutes a week! I prefer to spend this time getting them to practice the five conjugations that they are likely to need at this point in time. Those who go on to level 2 are able to pick up vosotros pretty easily because they have had LOTS OF PRACTICE WITH THE OTHERS! This is level 1, and if you think thirteen year old kids need to learn vosotros to read Cervantes, you really ought to spend some volunteer time in a middle school to get a better grasp of reality. Do you suggest I also teach the archaic forms used in Don Quijote now as well, just in case they're planning on reading it this summer?

I live in Sonora, after all. It was Mexico less than 150 years ago. The issue with the Spaniards is not ancient history...part of the reason that Mexico wanted independence from Spain was the criollo system that put native born Spaniards and those of pure Spanish blood above those of mixed or pure native blood. This is not much different from our slavery issue here in the United States in terms of second class citizenship. I am teaching students who speak Spanish at home but do not read it or write it. Perhaps you have read about problems with Hispanic students in terms of graduation rates? How much of a turn off do you think it is for a white, anglophone woman to tell a native speaker that the language s/he speaks at home and the guidelines for usage that his parents and grandparents insist on don't really mean much because they aren't "castellano?" Should I also declare "Viva el imperio español?" I explain the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar and insist that the Spanish they use in class be grammatically correct and be spelled right, but I am not about to insist that they change camarones to gambas because that is what the "madre patria" uses. I want my students...those who have Hispanic backgrounds and those who do not...to learn the language well, to be able to use it, to understand and value ALL the cultures of the Spanish speaking world, and to enjoy Spanish enough to continue with it. Where I live, speaking Spanish is the ticket to success and to better paying jobs...not to mention a part of daily life. Practical? You bet. Kids feel successful and they want more. They speak to people who only speak Spanish, find out that the stuff I'm teaching "works" and continue studying Spanish!

It would seem to me that since Spain is now allowing the Basques to speak Euskara and to name their children Euskara names, and signs in Barcelona are written in Catalán, you might cut Mexico a break and allow them to call themselves "mexicanos" (their money says Estados Unidos Mexicanos) instead of continuing to impose Méjico on them.

I seem to recall a very similar difference of opinion that went round and round the Oakland CA school board!

I am not a teacher but I thought I would add my student's perspective. Unfortunately until I got to Spanish 3 in high school, 99% of the class was there for one of the reasons Catalina mentioned. I don't think it would have been too hard to add vosotros to our curriculum since it was already in all our book's verb charts anyway. But I do see where you all are coming from as far as the students getting turned off since they did not want to even be in the class, let alone hear long explanations. I was thrilled when Spanish AP rolled around and everyone was there for the same reasons I was, and we actually wanted to learn the intricacies of the language! But anyway... I was really responding to the Destinos thing: we watched it my sophomore and junior year of high school (6-7 years ago) and did it ever stick with us! We used to love "Destinos Fridays" and I agree that it does a great job with the regional variations, both in language and in culture. When I was in Salamanca last year we discovered that there were a lot of us who had watched Destinos in high school, and everyone seemed to remember it! We were all very disappointed that most of us never got to see the end and find out what happened to Angel's family. So it makes me feel sad (and old!) to know that our show is now outdated, but perfecta by all means use Nuevos Destinos -- since the kids will definitely remember it!

Permit me to close out my thoughts on this divisive topic.

I recognize that most teachers are expected to instruct the water-downed "standardized American Spanish", so I am not aiming to chastize the contributors to this board who toil dilligently under frequently inimical conditions. But, I do target the systemic problems that butress this incomplete education.

Sadly, many of the large number of imigrants from south of the boarder are illiterate in thier native tongue. It is undoubtedly true that it is easier to learn a foreign language, if one has mastery over his or her first language. I quarrel with the notion that students from Mexico or Mejico should be trained in Mexican-Spanish soley to replace the instruction they were denied on the other side of the frontier. The American education system errors when it seeks to supplement the foibles of other countries. It is obvious that these student will speak the Spanish dialect that they learened at home, but to truely facilitate a greater understanding of the grammatical rules that underpin all languages they should be required to learn the precepts that exist in Spanish. We do not just seek to elevate their Spanish understandings, but rather to effect excellence in English.

In regards to the archaic usage question, I suggest using the revered Real Academia Espanola as the cornerstone for instruction. If the usage is obsolete, then concentrate on the agreed upon norms. Spanish is a living language that cannot be easily isolated, but to tolerate an instruction in its use that is geographically isolated limits its splendor.




[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Shawn ]

[ 04-10-2001: Message edited by: Shawn ]

I taught Spanish for 3 years in an Elementary school. We didn't really do any verb conjugation (it's mostly vocabulary and simple phrases), so I was able to avoid the vosotros controversy.

During my student teaching in high school, I did teach vosotros. Turns out the teacher they had wasn't familiar with it, and supported my position to introduce it to them. I told them exactly what my high school Spanish teacher told us: "If you're going to college, you'll see vosotros, so you might as well learn it now." And yes, I tested them on it. Sure they groaned about it, but kids groan about everything!

When I went to college, I had no problem understanding the professors, most of whom were from Spain, but the majority of my fellow students were completely lost. I considered it a major advantage that my teacher had insisted we learn (and tested us on) the vosotros form. We learned it without thinking about it, and I was able to use it comfortably during my study abroad in Sevilla, when most of the other American students couldn't. We didn't do the zeta (th), though. Our teacher told us about it, but since she personally preferred the s sound, that's what we learned.

If I lived in another country and my (fictional) children were enrolled in English classes in the schools there, I would not at all be surprised if they were taught spelling and vocabulary from England. It is, after all, the mother language.

«It would seem to me that since Spain is now allowing the Basques to speak Euskara and to name their children Euskara names...»

I've been observing this post...but had to jump in here. Spain is not nor has it ever been in the position to "allow" Basques to speak or not speak euskera. Franco tried and failed (curiously, gallego was never "outlawed")...and nobody else has come close. I'm not sure where that opinion came from, but please...put it out of your mind!

The situation in the United States is not the same, since what we're referring to here is Spanish, not Nahuátl. If you want to say that "the parents [of Mexican-Americans, e.g.] don't speak Spanish...or the kids are only in it for a few non-academic reasons", I suggest you re-read Shawn's posts.

As a teacher I fought hard to combat the "dumbing-down" of our Spanish curriculum. It was precisely my love of Spain that moved me to do so. If a student wanted a challenging class that was also fun, s/he took my class. If s/he wanted a grade to satisfy a requirement, they went elsewhere, since I held my students to a standard. A teachers responsibility and duty are to instruct and enlighten, not to bow down to the will of the student. Those who do otherwise do a disservice to those intellects which have been entrusted to their care.

Spanish is still an elective, and as far as I know, French and German are usually offered as alternatives. After speaking with my colleagues who taught those languages, I was convinced that even though there are regional differences (France-Québec; Germany-Switzerland-Austria), these teachers were committed to teaching the real language first, and the variations as options second. Sure I taught my students how to say silly things like wazzup...and the like, but never at the expense of substantial language.

This goes deeper than vosotros, but vosotros is the embodiment of what's right (and if omitted, what's wrong) with U.S. education. (And I'm fairly confident that it's a U.S.-only phenomenon...) Tell your students to hit the books and not each other. It worked for me...I had an 89% pass rate on the AP test, and a number of students who had me as their Spanish instructor for all four years of high school.

You will earn the respect of your students if you challenge them. They will continue to walk all over you if you let them slide by on the lowest-common-denominator express.

The Basque people are Euskadi; the language is Euskera. The people of Galicia are Gallego and their language is Galego (often called Galego/Portugues). Franco was from El Ferrol (O'Ferrol), in Coruña. It might have been seen as an insult to his own people if he tried to outlaw Galego.
BTW
The President of the Xunta de Galizia is one of the last surviving members of Franco's Oligarchy (Manuel de Fraga y Iribarne) in a leadership position. He also happens to be one of Aznar's principal supporters.

CaliBasco, my friend from Bilbao was named Gloria when whe was born even though that was not the name her parents had chosen for her because it was the castellano equivalent of the euskeri name. She said her parents would have been severely punished had they continued to call her by her non-castellano name. She recently had it officially changed. Back when Franco was in charge, as memory serves, languages other than castellano were not supposed to be used in schools and I don't remember signs being written in other dialects/languages either. Therefore I assume that he was somewhat successful in repressing what he wanted repressed. My argument is that at this point in time it would seem that Mexico should be allowed to select a spelling of itself and its people that it wants and not be forced into what "proper castellano" would have.

Here in the United States several Native American tribes have also begun to use the names they had for themselves before the Spanish gave them new ones. The Yaquis, Papagos and Navajos, among others, are trying to regain what they felt they lost/was taken from them. Now I love Spain a lot, but I cannot believe that anyone would still insist that every single action they took must be supported at all cost. If we applied the argument that has been appearing regarding vosotros and proper castellano to everything, I would have been obligated to teach British usage and spelling to my students because British English was and therefore IS the only correct form and if the Queen doesn't use it, neither should we. Or is that what you did while you taught?

I had to shut down my computer and start over as I had a 'stuck key' and suddenly everything started blinking and that previous message was sent blank!

To the point: This is not the first time New World Spanish v. Peninsular Spanish has been argued through cyberspace by FL teachers. What is curious to me is, that I thought in this profession, we were supposed to be promoting diversity and acceptance of differences in culture (language, race, customs, etc.). I live very close to Canada and many times my students want to mock the canadians and their accents (Mike Myers, anyone?), their spelling of English words (read British English), and of course their accent (eh?). I feel it is my obligation to put a different 'spin' on their observations. This is exactly what we should be doing when teaching a living diverse language like Spanish. Emphasize what you know best, assess on what you deem as most important, but EXPOSE them and make them AWARE of ALL of the richness and diversity the language (as well as over 20 different countries) have to offer. People who teach native speakers of Mexican heritage should not ridicule or say a particular vocabulary preference is wrong (uds. v vosotros); our job is to point out the vastness of the language and compare and contrast some of the differences. (That is not to say that some 'wrong' usage, ex. preterite second person 'comisteS' or 'avia' for habia, shouldn't be corrected just as an English teacher would correct a native English speaking student. As educators we must insist on accurate content.)

I learned Spanish in Mexico but for the last many years I have traveled to Spain so I have altered my accent to sound more Spanish than Mexican. Some days my students try out their castilian (mostly spitting all over!) but recently after doing a unit about US imigration and watching El Norte...they were all trying out their 'pinche'and 'chingado' Mexican jerga! This too is further diversified by having had a puertorriquena for a teacher last year...they use 'mahones' and 'chevere' without a blink....My summation...its all in the spin and personally that spin is not an option for Spanish teachers it is an obligation.