I am trying to understand the subjective mood and I am confused.

So that I can see the differences, can someone please tell me how you translate each of these eight words?:

a. quiero and queremos (Present Indicative)
b. quiera and queramos (Present Subjunctive)
c. quise and quisimos (Preterite Indicative)
d. quisiese and quisiemos (Preterite Subjunctive)

Thanks …. wdc

Here's my take. The basic problem is that English no longer really has a subjunctive, so there is no simple translation of Spanish subjunctive forms in isolation. The following is a gloss.

a. I want, we want
b. (roughly), "(that) I (should) want" etc
c. I wanted, we wanted
d. "(that) I wanted", "..would want"
(BTW "quisiemos" should be "quisiesemos", or "quisieramos").

From the point of view of English, whether a subjunctive form of a verb means something different from the indicative depends on the context. Sometimes it depends on grammar. For instance to say " I expected you would help me" in Spanish, "you would help", would be imperfect subjective (que me ayudaras). So in this case, you might say, that "ayudaras" " means "you would help". In other cases though, it just translates as "you helped" (e.g., no me parece que le ayudaras - I don't think you helped him).

So looking for an all-inclusive "meaning" for the subjunctive forms that will explain all their uses is probably not the best way to go. English deals with the contexts in which it is used in a whole bunch of different ways. You have to learn the contexts (IMHO!)

Wow, for a foreigner: Olé

We actually have a remnant of subjunctive (due to current usage, it won't be used much longer!) when we say "If I were you." This is called contrary to fact and the fact that it is not real is marked by a verb form that is not normally used with I. Since people keep wanting to "correct" this, the "If I was you" is becoming the norm, and once that happens we will have lost every bit of the subjunctive!

Muy bien Boqueron!!

Another way to think of the subjunctive in English is by reciting "If I WERE a rich man..." from the King and I--that's subjunctive. The subjunctive deals with things that aren't necessarily the case--he's not a rich man, but if he were...in Spanish it works the same. (Along with a bunch of other reasons for using the subjunctive which Boqueron has already gone into...) Ojala que vengais.--God willing/ Hopefully you'll come, !Espero que termines pronto! I hope you finish soon!

GG

I agree that to simply translate the 'forms' of the subjunctive will not aid in your comprehension of the subjunctive mood. That said, I DO think one needs to grasp the 'big picture-overall' use of the subjunctive. The indicative mood deals in reality, actions and occurances which we know or believe to be factual or true; the subjunctive mood is used when we are speaking of occurances or actions which are not known to be factual, have yet to occur (in the future,ie not for certain) or simply be of questionable existence. Here are a few examples:
1. Yo quiero comer...indicative...I want to eat so I will(reality)
2. La mama quiere que la bebe coma....subj...the mom may want the child to eat but it may take more than that for the child to actually eat(uncertain)
3.Voy a comer cuando regrese. (regrese...subj...I have yet to return (in the future) so not yet reality or for certain.
4. Busco un apartamento que tenga 15 banos...subj...I may be looking for those 15 bathrooms but until I find them their existence is not in the realm of reality.

I could go on, as there are more difficult aspects to the subjunctive but..There really is no easy nor quick way to master the subjuntive mood...and yes it is complicated by its infrequent use in English.
I don't know if I am supposed to promote a book on this list but the BEST grammar book for the Spanish language is 'A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish' by John Butt and Carmen Benjamin ISBN 0-658-00873-0
Ojala que esta breve explicacion te haya ayudado......subj...I just HOPE it helped and hoping something does not make it a given !

Thanks to all for your comments and examples. You have all been a great help.
.... wdc

GG: BTW, although I may be confused with the subjunctive, I'm pretty sure that "If I were a rich man" is from Fiddler on the Rooof, not King and I? ...wdc

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Re. subjunctive in English. I'm not sure this will be of much help with Spanish but...It still turns up in English in the present tense, though it tends to be invisible, as in most cases it's not different from the indicative. However, if you were to say, rather formally, "I insist that the child eat at the table" (rather than "eatS at the table"), then that's subjunctive, at least historically (and the equivalent would be subjunctive in Spanish).

And it was once used in "imperative" contexts, also as in Spanish.

Be that as it may (Sea lo que sea)
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done!

I share your pain, Wdc!

I always struggle with the different inflected forms of the Spanish verbs ... and especially the subjunctive.

But, I´m sure you know the saying: Rome was not built in... don´t remember how many... years!

I receive "Spanish word of the month" from http://elemadrid.com to my e-mail and this month´s topic is: The use of subjunctive. There are some fast rules and useful examples (with English translation) and explanations.

¡Espero que te ayude! I hope it will help!
Tia

I think you mean 'No se tomó Zamora en una hora', meaning the terrible effort it took to win that fortified city in a succesion war 8 or 9 centuries ago.

In case you mean an spanish expresiion ,if it is in English, ...

Ignacio