A short history of my family’s plans to move to Spain.

We were married in Madrid ten years ago.

Initially we planned to live in Spain but my wife, never having lived in the US, wanted to live state side for a few years, brush up her English, get U.S. experience on her resume, etc.,etc.

A few years later our son was born.

This necessitated a decision to either buy a flat in Madrid or a house in the U.S. House wins. We extended our stay in the U.S.

Our son starts school. A few more years pass.

Our son announces he has no desire to learn Spanish and would his mother please stop speaking to him in Spanish. Wife retaliates and takes son to Madrid for the summer and places him in a Spanish immersion program (he has dual citizenship). He hates the whole experience but now can swear in Spanish with great alacrity and has picked up some shocking racial slurs about gypsies.

Wife becomes serious about moving back to Spain. We consult headhunters, the consulate, friends, etc. about jobs.

The job situation is bleak.

We are told that with luck we would earn approximately half of our U.S. salaries. At the same time Spanish housing market takes off. My wife’s old one bedroom piso in Chanmartin sells for $750.000 U.S.

Plans to move to Spain officially abandoned.

Hope this real life experience helps.

Old-Gringo, your story only confirms what I think about my friend's kids here in the Midwest: They don't want to know anything about their parent's culture; don't want to learn Spanish; and feel embarrassed when their parents talk to them in Spanish when their Anglo-Saxon friends are around. But I think, this applies to all kids descendant of immigrants. The kids are just trying to fit in. Eventually they will mature and (hopefully) embrace their roots.

I just met an engineer from Venezuela, descendant of Italians, who was transferred to the U.S., years ago. His now teen-aged kids were born here in the U.S., and when he told them about going back to Venezuela, they wished him good luck and to come and visit them as much as he can...that was their attitude and final word, I'm serious! He ended up staying here.

Going back to the subject...Yes, the move to Spain is totally complicated: Jobs scarce, wages are low, housing is expensive, bureaucracy is huge, etc., etc., if people like your wife find it difficult to go back to Spain, I don't want to imagine what a foreigner has to go through to succeed in moving to Spain. .

I agree, I just think teenagers rebel against anything that their parents think is important, whether it be spanish, school, or keeping a clean room.

I think we read a lot of negative stuff on the board about how difficult it is to move to spain, find a job, a house, get all the papers processed, etc. But, I guess my question is why should it be easy? I mean why would we expect any different? We've practically made it next to impossible for people from other countries to come here and work (earning a decent living and with health care) and live. Plus, I think it depends upon how important it is that you make the move, what you are willing to sacrifice/change/adapt to, and that list naturally gets smaller when you have children. Many moves within the U.S. are just as difficult and cost prohibitive -- the sticker shock I experienced moving from Arkansas to San Francisco was enough to make my heart skip a few beats. But it is important to remember that there ARE people on this board who have successfully (whatever that means) made the move to Spain. So, I'm keeping the faith Old Gringo...maybe when your son hits college age you can say adios and you and your wife can kick back on the beach in spain. ;-) I bet he'll want to learn some spanish then....

The thing that killed it for us (at least short term) was the convergence of a substandard wage scale, high taxes and an outrageous housing market.

If you are younger, just starting out, without financial obligations or responsibilities, these things may not be an issue. If that is the case then you are lucky, but for most of us, these things become issues very quickly.

Oh of course, of course - substandard wages, high taxes, and outrageous housing markets are all big factors when considering where to live. That would be the reason I live in DC now instead of San Francisco. That is also why I said if you have children your list of what you are willing to sacrifice/adapt to, etc...gets shorter. I completely understand your point. I have plenty of friends who loved living in the city, but once children came along, a house in the suburbs was about the only practical option. At the same time, I don't have kids, I am not married, I can sell my condo...so I am just trying to keep the faith alive. Call me naive!

Not necessarily...

I moved a year ago from DC with my three-year-old and SO to Madrid. It was precisely the fact that I have a child that was the "straw that broke the camel's back." I have never lived in the suburbs and I never will.... And it was becoming increasingly unsustainable to raise a child and have a relatively sane lifestyle in big a US city.

All of the same things that have happened in the housing market in Madrid have happened in DC--with one notable exception--the rent in Madrid is much, much cheaper than it is in DC. We were lucky enough to buy a house there before everything went crazy, so we rent our house out in DC, pay our mortgage and pay our rent here. Our health insurance (private) is one sixth the price that it was in DC. My son's preschool is free and excellent and one block from our house (versus the more than $1000 per month we would have paid in DC for a lesser, more far-flung private preschool). We've been able to go back to school--something we could never afford to do in DC--because the university here (Complutense) costs around $1200 a year.

But most of all, Madrid is--in my opinion--a better place to be a child and a parent. Children are fully accepted into public life and are welcome anywhere. Materialism/consumerism is much more in check, there are a lot more cultural activities for children (and adults), and there is a lot more support available for parents. You can get by on so much less here, mainly because the best things about this place are virtually free... When you have kids here, you are really part of the community. You don't have to make any special effort, it just happens naturally.

My goodness! I snooze on this link and there's a whole conversation I am missing!

My SO and I live together in the Washington, DC area. If he wants to stay in the US, we would have to stay in the East Coast because it's closest to Spain. He has a nice career in the software engineering field.

For me, I am switching careers. I was on the "lawyer" track, but got "sideswiped", so I'm up to do anything right now. I have no issue about career because I don't have one. (so sad!)

My SO has a condo in Madrid and is currently paying for both our rental apt here and his condo, so he needs to make a choice to either rent it or move back to Madrid b/c he can't continue to expense his condo.

We both agree that the US is not a place where we would want to raise kids. We both don't like the suburbian lifestyle of how kids hang out at the mall and watch tv/internet all the time.

We both perfer the nice stroll in the afternoons to go to the market and get fresh groceries. We like how the families are close in Spain.

Perhaps there is a nice community in the US similar to Spain, but I haven't found it yet (I grew up on an island, perhaps that's pretty close in feeling).

Like most things in life, there are pluses and minuses to any situation.

We found these things a definite plus regarding Spain and our child and the programs my wife put him in during her various forays to Spain.

Subsidized childcare, lunches and social services. For better or worse, the state has a real commitment to children.

Downsides.

Socialistic bureaucrat nanny state mentality-

My wife, who has a U.S. teaching certificate, was not allowed to volunteer in any of the educational programs my son was involved in. No one was. Only Spanish certified professionals were allowed in the classroom. Everyone else is considered too stupid to contribute.

Different Sensibilities-

Teachers completely indifferent to the fact fourteen year olds were smoking during recess.

Inappropriate language by children completely overlooked.

Educationally behind the curve-

No clue as to what ADHD is and any other current topic about childhood disabilities.

No special education, special needs, additional services available except in very extreme cases. The prevailing attitude for education is that one size fits all.

Perhaps different individuals have had different experiences, but these have been ours.

Old Gringo is right on many points! (I've also taught in Spain.) The decision of where to raise your children (Spain or the U.S.) is very complicated. I agree that Spain is a wonderful place to have kids. I recommend being there for pregnancies, babies, and young children, IF you can afford a private school once school age begins, or your children are very bright, kind-hearted, and good at memorization. (If you can figure out how to guarantee that, let me know!) Living there and going to school is NOT the same as spending your holidays there with your kids. Education in the US, for all its problems, is more humane.

Once adolescence strikes the decision becomes very murky. You will no longer be pushing a stroller through a lovely park, meeting friends for a coffee while the kids play in the playground at the end of the street. I've had a number of passionate discussions with other dual-nationality parents on this one. The three big worries for parents of teens are drinking, drugs, and premarital sex. These are problems that exist equally in the U.S. and Spain. I know parents in Spain who want to return to the U.S. before the kids are teens. In some ways the peer pressure on
Spanish kids is even greater than in the U.S. Spanish kids also hang out in groups, in malls even, and watch loads of tv. My own kids watch way more tv when they're in Spain than when they're in the U.S. And I wouldn't say Spanish tv was any better than American tv. (Although I do enjoy Spanish commercials )

There is no right answer here. Raising children is harder than anything else you'll do. Where you do it will be a gamble. How you and your children will interact with the society around you is impossible to predict.

I agree with you mariposita. Though it has been almost two years since I got back from spain I am struggling between the us and Spain. I realize how much we as americans waste. You really don't need too much to live on. We are so consumed with what we can buy to impress our neighbors. No one really cares. Everyone is so caught up in their own lives anyway. I love the US and it has provided great opportunities.It is a "can do nation", But as I get older I am thinking more and more about spain.Spain has its problems with xenophobia, but on the whole spaniards enjoy life.Lets face westerners who move there aren't looking to become rich(though it would help)but are going for the lifestyle.To me the suburbs in the US are overrated(beautiful houses, but no life). You only get one life so you might as well do what makes you happy.